On the Topic of Evil in Leadership!!!!

[David Mauldin]

   I just finished reading the History of the Assembly thread. Yes I agree, I believe that G.G. is a very wicked and evil man. After reading "Krystan's Story" I recant my comments about regreting to "clean his clock" after running into him at Starbucks. I think he is a psychotic control freek bordering on pedofilia?  (Krystan seemed to have a 14 year old mentallity/psychology) George thrived on making us all into children and then indulging his desires on us.  Think about it, there are brothels all over the Los Angeles area and all over the countries he visited 9 months of the year. If it was just sex he was after he could have/probably did/ drive to Santa Monica and been home before the afternoon. "Hi Betty!" Instead he had to play sick games with the sisters. A few years ago I was working in a hospital in Tustin. I had a patient who had some very curious wounds to his stomach.  Later I discovered that this man molested children and was the victim of small town justice. I had the impression that the police were not trying too hard to find the attacker. But anyway what I wanted to adress in this thread is the fact that "evil" seems to be in every leader I have come across. Recently I had breakfast with an old high school friend. We went to the First Baptist Church of Lakewood  together. He brought me up to date on the leaders there. Pastor Bore (No pun intended) was given papers for adultery in 1986. Randy Sikes (The high school leader) was kicked out in 82 for having sex with the high school girls (Randy was in his 30's at the time) You may remember Randy was later arrested in La Habra for kidnapping and rape in 1985. He was later cleared of charges but the circumstances ruined him for good.) Bill McKee a youth  pastor at Hume lake, was found to be having sex with women at E.V. Free Church. While I was attending grace Bible Chapel in Fullerton the Elder, Bob Seeker, who was married with 4 children was sleeping with a girl in the college  group. Next we all know about David Hocking, Mike Crocorous? spelling?(Church of the Open door) and most recently the most aggresively anti-homosexual pastor in O.C., Paul Crouch was exposed for paying hush money to a former partner. Ironic that all these men made it their buisness to make sure I was not having sex!!!  Funny I never did!!!  But sure felt guilty for wanting to!!! I ask you is anyone really qualified for leadership?

[M2]

Sad. Isn't it??

You are right about this: "George thrived on making us all into children and then ..."
It is the only way he could control us and maintain his lifestyle.  We would not have stayed had we truly been "growing up into Christ".

Who is qualified for leadership?

The one who does not take advantage of the sheep and who truly cares for the well-being of the sheep instead.

Blessings,
Marcia

[vernecarty]

   I just finished reading the History of the Assembly thread. Yes I agree, I believe that G.G. is a very wicked and evil man. After reading "Krystan's Story" I recant my comments about regreting to "clean his clock" after running into him at Starbucks. I think he is a psychotic control freek bordering on pedofilia?  (Krystan seemed to have a 14 year old mentallity/psychology) George thrived on making us all into children and then indulging his desires on us.  Think about it, there are brothels all over the Los Angeles area and all over the countries he visited 9 months of the year. If it was just sex he was after he could have/probably did/ drive to Santa Monica and been home before the afternoon. "Hi Betty!" Instead he had to play sick games with the sisters. A few years ago I was working in a hospital in Tustin. I had a patient who had some very curious wounds to his stomach.  Later I discovered that this man molested children and was the victim of small town justice. I had the impression that the police were not trying too hard to find the attacker. But anyway what I wanted to adress in this thread is the fact that "evil" seems to be in every leader I have come across. Recently I had breakfast with an old high school friend. We went to the First Baptist Church of Lakewood  together. He brought me up to date on the leaders there. Pastor Bore (No pun intended) was given papers for adultery in 1986. Randy Sikes (The high school leader) was kicked out in 82 for having sex with the high school girls (Randy was in his 30's at the time) You may remember Randy was later arrested in La Habra for kidnapping and rape in 1985. He was later cleared of charges but the circumstances ruined him for good.) Bill McKee a youth  pastor at Hume lake, was found to be having sex with women at E.V. Free Church. While I was attending grace Bible Chapel in Fullerton the Elder, Bob Seeker, who was married with 4 children was sleeping with a girl in the college  group. Next we all know about David Hocking, Mike Crocorous? spelling?(Church of the Open door) and most recently the most aggresively anti-homosexual pastor in O.C., Paul Crouch was exposed for paying hush money to a former partner. Ironic that all these men made it their buisness to make sure I was not having sex!!!  Funny I never did!!!  But sure felt guilty for wanting to!!! I ask you is anyone really qualified for leadership?

Hi David:
Most folk, including his former hand-picked leaders, have indeed concluded that Geftakys was an evil man; so much so that they ex-communicated him. You will no doubt find it remarkable that there are still some however who will try to convince you that this man was the "Lord's servant".
Believe it or not, we actually had someone like that posting on this very BB.
More remarkably David, we also had folk (and some still do) taking a person like this seriously if you can imagine.
It was a startling illustration of how places like the assemblies get started and sustained.
Too many Christians are either out and out spiritually obtuse, or simply too cowardly to speak the truth.
The record of men in ministry succumbing to sexual temptation is incredibly depressing and I am not sure why this is going on.
Obviously this is an area in which we men have to excercise particular vigilance because of our natrual inclinations.
Clearly men who truly desire to serve Jesus Christ will be the particular target of the adversary's schemes to ruin them for service and he has used sex with terrible effectiveness.
Having said that, your question about who is fit for leadership is searching.
The case can certainly be made, that many men end up in positions of leadership who have no business being there.
It is my opinion that if the church would simply abide by the Biblical standard for leadership, we would not see nearly so many instances of failure.
I remember for example when I was studying the qulaifications for elder in 1 Timothy 3 and came across the phrase:

...the husband of one wife...

Like most folk I had assumed that it simply meant the elder should not be a divorced and remarried person.
Of course any one who has studied the passage will tell you that it means far more than that.
The idea is the the elder should be a "one-woman kind of man".

It had a profound impact on my own thinking- it was not good enough to just be "faithful" to one's spouse.
The standard called for one to be so completely filled with God's Spirit, that even the natural tendency we men have for "roving eyes" and "wandering thoughts" would be brought into subjection.
There is not a  (normal) man alive who does not know that in our natural strength this is impossible, but that is just the point.
Who is qualfied for leadership?
The man or woman whom God qualifies! We just need to uphold the standard.
Verne

[David Mauldin]

While at GBC I met G.V. Mahti. (Spelling?) G.V was/is well acquainted with G.G. and a man named Bahkt Sing (Spelling?)  G.V. runs a mission organization. Something about him seemed suspect to me. Although G.V. was primarily associated with the Plymouth Bretheren he has no qualms about speaking in denominational groups in and around Southern California in order to raise money for his mission org. Many churches such as La Mirada Friends  support G.V.'s ministry. (See his picture on the mission wall)  also he has been at Biola for a number of events. Dr David Black participated with G.V. on a mission trip during the early 90's. A friend of mine, Cliff Teemy went also. Cliff returned from the trip very discouraged.  He told me that what G.V. advertised as a great mission work was greatly exaggerated. This kind of garbage goes on and on everywhere!  While I was listening to a "missionary itinerant preacher" in Highland Park I remember him talking about a Christian School in the South Pacific.  He said, "The school is doing a great work!" "But they don't have enough teachers!"  He then went on a rant about "The harvest is great, but the laborers are few" So I decided to write a letter to the administrator and volunteer my services.  He wrote back, "I'm sorry but we have no need for any teachers"  'Where did you hear this?"  After returning from a MT Team with the assembly, I read about an outreach (I participated in) in the prayer calander.  Yet from what I remember as a debate with 3-4 muslims in a park I read "100 Muslims listen to the Gospel!"  "the saints fed and preached to a group of 100 muslims in the park on blah...blahh...blah... Again who can you trust? (Don't say Jesus O.K. he's in heaven)

[Margaret]

David - RE. G. V. Matthai, whom Steve and I met through GG in 1970, he is not at all a fan of GG, but he is a faithful follower of Bakht Singh, who was a very well-known evangelist and church planter in India until his death a few years ago. G. V. was always in charge of Bakht Singh's west coast speaking schedule during his yearly visits to the Indian churches in the U. S. When Bakht Singh's followers speak of a "great work" they don't mean large in numbers or even something very active; to them, it's great because it's carrying on the legacy of Bakht Singh.

Steve and I got together with G. V. and Maryama Matthai in the early '90's, and were told an interesting anecdote about GG (with whom G. V. had attended Biola). Bakht Singh was arriving in Orange County and was scheduled to speak at one of the Indian groups that night. GG volunteered to pick him up and bring him to the meeting. Instead of taking him to the meeting, GG took him to his house. G. V. called GG, inquiring where Bakht Singh was, and saying that there were a lot of people gathered waiting to hear him speak. GG said that Bakht Singh was resting and would not be attending the meeting. Instead of taking him the to the Indian meeting, GG brought him to the Fullerton Assembly! So we all were given the impression that our group was such a wonderful work of God that Bakht Singh wanted to visit, when in reality, he had no such intention and was basically hijacked by GG, who wanted the feather in his cap that the well-known Bakht Singh had come to visit his "great work".

[vernecarty]

Again who can you trust?

If you get involved in any ministry for the wrong reasons (anything other than an conviction that God wants you involved), your labor will probably end in dissapointment.
Even when you are convinced that God wanted you to serve, you will always find wolves and unfaithful brethren in the midst. In fact, part of the lesson of earthly ministry is to learn to trust God and Him alone.

  After returning from a MT Team with the assembly, I read about an outreach (I participated in) in the prayer calander.  Yet from what I remember as a debate with 3-4 muslims in a park I read "100 Muslims listen to the Gospel!"  "the saints fed and preached to a group of 100 muslims in the park on blah...blahh...blah...

Did you get hold of someone in responsibillity and ask for an explanation of the blatant msirepresentation?
I am well aware that much of what went on in the assemblies was not challenged as no one wanted to suffer the consequences. This in the kind of thing that those in leadership must have over time learned to accept and justify. No different from the "heavenly deception" of the Krishna folk

(Don't say Jesus O.K. he's in heaven)

You have actually answered you own question, David.
Who else can you trust?
After I left the assemblies I became involved with the C & MA and gave way to another kind of spiritual pride.
I loved that organization, and the godly witness of men like Ravi Zecharias and Sunder Krishnan.
The missionary work of C &MA is second to none, in terms of the quality of the people it sends out.
Imagine my shock at discoverng they also had in a place of authority a lying, deceitful, avaricious and unethical district superintendent.
A man responsible for the destruction of several churches in the Midwest.(some of you who think you do don't know the half of it...)
Even though I left, this in no way impugns the entire organization; God is fatihful and will restore all things. Of that I am certain.
That theory about infiltration may not be all that far fetched...
Verne

p.s Margaret's anecdote about Geftakys is telling. He apparently got his start by associating himself with people of established reputation. He continued his influence by employing the same trickery.
I feel so sorry for those who aided in his legitimization. What a horrible way to be used and an awful legacy to leave...

Wasn't there some story about Bakht Singh coming to Fullerton and pronouncing some kind of judgment on the place??!!


Wherefore I take you to record this day, that I am pure from the blood of all men.
 For I have not shunned to declare unto you all the counsel of God.
Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.
 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.
Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears.   

[David Mauldin]

Thanks Margaret for the information shared.  Have you ever seen the movie, "The Apostle" with Robert Duval?  I think it is a telling example of a dysfunctional psychosis prevelent in American culture. The apostle is GG  but also every "Minister" to some degree. I think Cliff's disapointment was in the exagerrated numbers/contacts/lifechanging stories. Not as you have suggested. But please feel free to contact Cliff. He is at Westminister Bible Chapel. As I have said already G.V. was not being open and honest before his "friends". I always sense something secretive about him and I found out.


                              "A vulgar and crude man is more to be trusted than a religious and pretentious one!"

                                                                                                    Benjamin Franklin

                                                   

[Oscar]

Folks,

The Apostle" with Robert Duval?  I think it is a telling example of a dysfunctional psychosis prevelent in American culture.

Hmmmm....all the ministers are crazy.   

You've just gotta love them liberals.  They're so.....so......sensitive.   


Thomas Maddux

[outdeep]

David,

You do bring forth good questions to discuss.  I don't think you can bring anecdotal situations (I know this corrupt guy here and this hypocrite there) and extrapolate it to all ministers, but it is true that being a professing Christian and minister does not always mean an upright person.  I am sure you would enjoy Barna's research that sees very little statistical difference morally between professing believers and non-believers in many areas.

Is there anyone you can trust?

I think it is like the situation anywhere.  You trust people who prove trustworthy over time.  I know Christians and ministers who I can completely trust - they are humble, others-centered, and wholly upright in their actions.  I’ve worked with these people and see how they make decisions and do business.  I've known others who are disasters waiting to happen and this becomes evident over time as well.

I think part of the problem is the entrepreneurial nature of Christianity.  Anyone can become a pastor, missionary, teacher, etc.  If you or I wanted to go out without credentials and we could convince enough people to buy into what we are doing, we can have our own church or mission organization.  A self-serving person with enough motivation can easily fake his or her way through seminary.  It all comes down to the integrity of the individual, not a group as a whole.

I always thought Jesus spoke to this with the parable of the wheat and the tares.  God sows wheat and the enemy weeds and they won’t be separated until final judgment.  Until then, the world of professing believers can be a mixed bag.

-Dave

[David Mauldin]

Tom should I bother to argue with you again??  The same guy who defends Detrich Bonhoeffer's attempts to murder Adolph Hitler but chastizes me for threatening GG?  But for the sake of others I will defuse the misquote.  Of course not all ministers are crazy. Yet all on this BB would agree that Americans do have this continual love/hate relationships with Elmer Gantry. Tom save your energy on someone else. As far as I am concerned I am through with you.

[M2]

Law and Order airs true-to-life stories.  A couple of episodes were about young men who were violated by a big-brother figure but they (the young men) remain 'loyal' to their big-brother.  The acceptance and kindness that came with the package of contact with the big-brother was worth the 'cover up' of the violation.

Interesting commentary on human nature eh??

Marcia

[Oscar]

Tom should I bother to argue with you again?? 

No David, I really wouldn't recommend it.   Its not your strong suit.

The same guy who defends Detrich Bonhoeffer's attempts to murder Adolph Hitler but chastizes me for threatening GG?

You really don't see the difference between  resisting a man who gave the orders to set up a system that murdered at least 12 milliion people, then started a war that killed 50 million, and threatening violence against an old man who made you feel bad.

 

  But for the sake of others I will defuse the misquote.  Of course not all ministers are crazy.

OK, but you did say:

Have you ever seen the movie, "The Apostle" with Robert Duval?  I think it is a telling example of a dysfunctional psychosis prevelent in American culture. The apostle is GG  but also every "Minister" to some degree.

Tom save your energy on someone else. As far as I am concerned I am through with you.

Suit yourself.

Thomas Maddux

[vernecarty]

No David, I really wouldn't recommend it.   Its not your strong suit.

You really don't see the difference between  resisting a man who gave the orders to set up a system that murdered at least 12 milliion people, then started a war that killed 50 million, and threatening violence against an old man who made you feel bad.

 
Thomas Maddux

It is not for me to say whether George is worse than Hitler or not.
I will tell you this though Tom.
The Biblical assessment of George Geftakys' sin is far more serious than "making David Mauldin feel bad".
It seems to me that you trivialise the awful transgression of this man by presenting it in those seeemingly dismissive terms.
Verne

[Oscar]

It is not for me to say whether George is worse than Hitler or not.
I will tell you this though Tom.
The Biblical assessment of George Geftakys' sin is far more serious than "making David Mauldin feel bad".
It seems to me that you trivialise the awful transgression of this man by presenting it in those seeemingly dismissive terms.
Verne

Verne,

I am not trying to trivialize GG's sin and abuse of God's people.

Believe me, I suffered enough of it.

But I have consistently argued since this board began that all of us chose to be there and to accept the abuse.

In other words, we were kept there by our own lack of understanding of the Bible, lack of clear thinking, lack of self knowledge,  and failure to apply plain old common sense.  Large numbers of other people took a look at GG and said, "Not me".

What I am saying is that there was a VERY large component of personal responsibility in what happend to us.  I don't really believe anyone can recover completely from the GG experience until they have faced this.

George only had a degree of control of information and some skill at psychological manipulation.  He didn't have any SS troops with bayonets to keep us in the compound by threats of death.

The fact is Verne, is that most people hate freedom!!!!      

Oh, they want the ability to kick back when they want to, but BIG decisions are scary.

It is soooooooo much easier to let some "father figure" make your decisions for you...especially if he has convinced you that he speaks for God.

But the Bible clearly says that mature adulthood in Christ is the goal of all ministry.  But it FELT so much better to just follow along.   And we DECIDED to do that.

Notice how some folks left GG after the fall, and went into other legalistic groups like the Bible church in the Valley?

They are still looking for the same thing.   

My point is, WE bear much of the responsibility for what happened to us.  There are literally hundreds of churches and groups that function in a manner similar to the assembly.  We just happened to hook up with this one.  But the hook found a place to grip us, didn't it.

Until we deal with the "hook" in ourselves, we cannot be healed.   Just saying "GG was evil" over and over doesn't change anything.  He was.  No problem there.

The issue is,"How have I changed?"

Thomas Maddux

[vernecarty]

Verne,

I am not trying to trivialize GG's sin and abuse of God's people.

Believe me, I suffered enough of it.

But I have consistently argued since this board began that all of us chose to be there and to accept the abuse.

In other words, we were kept there by our own lack of understanding of the Bible, lack of clear thinking, lack of self knowledge,  and failure to apply plain old common sense.  Large numbers of other people took a look at GG and said, "Not me".

What I am saying is that there was a VERY large component of personal responsibility in what happend to us.  I don't really believe anyone can recover completely from the GG experience until they have faced this.

George only had a degree of control of information and some skill at psychological manipulation.  He didn't have any SS troops with bayonets to keep us in the compound by threats of death.

The fact is Verne, is that most people hate freedom!!!!      

Oh, they want the ability to kick back when they want to, but BIG decisions are scary.

It is soooooooo much easier to let some "father figure" make your decisions for you...especially if he has convinced you that he speaks for God.

But the Bible clearly says that mature adulthood in Christ is the goal of all ministry.  But it FELT so much better to just follow along.   And we DECIDED to do that.

Notice how some folks left GG after the fall, and went into other legalistic groups like the Bible church in the Valley?

They are still looking for the same thing.   

My point is, WE bear much of the responsibility for what happened to us.  There are literally hundreds of churches and groups that function in a manner similar to the assembly.  We just happened to hook up with this one.  But the hook found a place to grip us, didn't it.

Until we deal with the "hook" in ourselves, we cannot be healed.   Just saying "GG was evil" over and over doesn't change anything.  He was.  No problem there.

The issue is,"How have I changed?"

Thomas Maddux

I understand Tom. Some of us were stronger than others no question and departed ere the  final conflagration.
There will always be weaker brethren who easily fall prey to wolves and remain in their clutches until and unless God in His mercy intervenes. No wonder the Lord was so moved (powerful term as you know) when he saw the sheep without a shepherd.
Not only is there a need for us to grow up in Christ and learn to accept responsibility for our own decisions, but it is also true that as long as the Chief Shepherd tarries, there will always be a need for those willing to stand against the likes of Geftakys and warn the unwary flock. That in my view, weighs as heavily in the divine plan as our acquiring the wisdom and maturity to avoid the snare of such fowlers...
Verne