On the Topic of Evil in Leadership!!!!

[M2]

Verne,

I am not trying to trivialize GG's sin and abuse of God's people.

Believe me, I suffered enough of it.

But I have consistently argued since this board began that all of us chose to be there and to accept the abuse.

In other words, we were kept there by our own lack of understanding of the Bible, lack of clear thinking, lack of self knowledge,  and failure to apply plain old common sense.  Large numbers of other people took a look at GG and said, "Not me".

What I am saying is that there was a VERY large component of personal responsibility in what happend to us.  I don't really believe anyone can recover completely from the GG experience until they have faced this.

George only had a degree of control of information and some skill at psychological manipulation.  He didn't have any SS troops with bayonets to keep us in the compound by threats of death.

The fact is Verne, is that most people hate freedom!!!!      

Oh, they want the ability to kick back when they want to, but BIG decisions are scary.

It is soooooooo much easier to let some "father figure" make your decisions for you...especially if he has convinced you that he speaks for God.

But the Bible clearly says that mature adulthood in Christ is the goal of all ministry.  But it FELT so much better to just follow along.   And we DECIDED to do that.

Notice how some folks left GG after the fall, and went into other legalistic groups like the Bible church in the Valley?

They are still looking for the same thing.   

My point is, WE bear much of the responsibility for what happened to us.  There are literally hundreds of churches and groups that function in a manner similar to the assembly.  We just happened to hook up with this one.  But the hook found a place to grip us, didn't it.

Until we deal with the "hook" in ourselves, we cannot be healed.   Just saying "GG was evil" over and over doesn't change anything.  He was.  No problem there.

The issue is,"How have I changed?"

Thomas Maddux

Just some thoughts on the matter.

Many of us were new believers when we "came into fellowship" and thus fresh ground for indoctrination.  We did not know anything else, or else that which we knew before was then labelled as being less spiritual than what we had.  I agree that, generally speaking, we were prone to to that which the assembly provided for us.

IMO, the evil of the assembly was akin to that of Hitler.  The psychologial manipulation was such that it held us in bondage.  Even many of those that left prior to GG's excomm... remained in bondage and only found deliverance after the opportunity presented itself via the website and this BB.

Yes, I have acknowledged my responsibility, but the effects of assembly life still linger.  E.g. while we were committed to fellowship we sacrificed our family connections.  And now, try as much as we can, the family is not so quick to fully integrate us.  It is not their fault; they have just gotten used to doing things without us.
I did not lose what others have lost.

George's SS troops came under a different title.  No, they did not have bayonets to keep us in the compound by threats of death, but they might as well have.  The damage to the souls of men and women is no small matter.

I do not hold a grudge against any former/present leader or wannabee, but I can say that one had to compromise one's conscience big-time to remain a leader or worker for George.  George did not have to visit every assembly, he only needed his 'faithful' ones to do so.  GG was comfortable with visiting Ottawa and Calgary once a year.  He visited Estevan even less, but his servants were sent there to do his will.

I am interested in your opinion on my comments.

God bless,
Marcia

[vernecarty]

Just some thoughts on the matter.

Many of us were new believers when we "came into fellowship" and thus fresh ground for indoctrination.  We did not know anything else, or else that which we knew before was then labelled as being less spiritual than what we had.  I agree that, generally speaking, we were prone to to that which the assembly provided for us.

IMO, the evil of the assembly was akin to that of Hitler.  The psychologial manipulation was such that it held us in bondage.  Even many of those that left prior to GG's excomm... remained in bondage and only found deliverance after the opportunity presented itself via the website and this BB.

Yes, I have acknowledged my responsibility, but the effects of assembly life still linger.  E.g. while we were committed to fellowship we sacrificed our family connections.  And now, try as much as we can, the family is not so quick to fully integrate us.  It is not their fault; they have just gotten used to doing things without us.
I did not lose what others have lost.

George's SS troops came under a different title.  No, they did not have bayonets to keep us in the compound by threats of death, but they might as well have.  The damage to the souls of men and women is no small matter.

I do not hold a grudge against any former/present leader or wannabee, but I can say that one had to compromise one's conscience big-time to remain a leader or worker for George.  George did not have to visit every assembly, he only needed his 'faithful' ones to do so.  GG was comfortable with visiting Ottawa and Calgary once a year.  He visited Estevan even less, but his servants were sent there to do his will.

I am interested in your opinion on my comments.

God bless,
Marcia

The language that God uses in matters of spiritual wickedness is not the language of "compassion" and "forgiveness", it is the language of divine judgment.

...and against all the gods of Egypt I will execute judgment: I am the Lord.

 For if God spared not the angels that sinned...

I know some people tire of my saying this, but the great tragedy of George Geftakys was the way he used others to establish his legtimcacy with the vulnerable. He was, according to his enablers, "The Lord's Servant".
As to the lingering effects of this perverse spirit, how interesting that there are still some, who in the face of the most execrable conduct, demand that we extend acceptance and sanction to people of evil deportment. This is the same spirit of compromise and defilement that permitted the Geftakys legacy to survive decades.
Think about the implications.
Think about what the Word of God says that men of God ought to be!
How is this possible??!!
Tom has one thing right. The critical question is how have we changed?
For those who have not learned at this point that there can be no compromise with spiritual wickedness, time in the lodge was wasted...
Verne
p.s in my opinon, the most dangerous and despicable people are those who instead of admitting who Geftakys was and what he did, continue to rummage like pigs thorough the charred remains of God's summary judgment of that unholy era, enjoining us to adorn ourselves with, and embrace what God has so clearly rejected...

p.p.s Marcia is absolutely right on the money. Several people who served with Geftakys are good friends.
Many of them I respect. One of them I took a missionary trip with.
That does not in any way change the harsh reality. If you served with this man, and particularly if you remained, you were compromised spiritually...

[outdeep]

IMO, the evil of the assembly was akin to that of Hitler.  The psychologial manipulation was such that it held us in bondage.  Even many of those that left prior to GG's excomm... remained in bondage and only found deliverance after the opportunity presented itself via the website and this BB.

George's SS troops came under a different title.  No, they did not have bayonets to keep us in the compound by threats of death, but they might as well have.  The damage to the souls of men and women is no small matter.

Hitler is our culture's figurehead for evil.  If a movie wants to show that someone is a bad guy, make him a Nazi.   If you don't like your political opponent, make him out to be Hitler.

The problem with the constant comparison to Hitler is that it doesn't show intensity of magnitude.  Acting out evil is on a continuum.  So George might be like Hitler in the same way that star basketball player Bobby Jones of Parkway Elementary school is like Michael Jordan or like my Ford Taurus is like a leer jet.  Certainly, there are similarities, but there are many extreme differences as well.  Somehow I think George would have stopped short of preaching that we should exterminate an entire ethnic group.

I think Tom is right in this sense:  I found it much more healing and profitable to think about my background and upbringing and figure out what attracted me to the Assembly as opposed to trying to figure out the "evil dudes" that kept me there.

[M2]

....
p.p.s Marcia is absolutely right on the money. Several people who served with Geftakys are good friends.
Many of them I respect. One of them I took a missionary trip with.
That does not in any way change the harsh reality. If you served with this man, and particularly if you remained, you were compromised spiritually...

My closest friendships are with ex-assemblyites, though I have made some new good friends at church.
Ex-assembly leaders, especially those who came to their senses and left before GG's excomm..., have much to offer us re. recovery from our assembly abuse.
What gets me is those cowards who are in "exile" because they are afraid that AB posters are going to bombard them with flyers or picket their homes.  Kind of reminds me of the hireling who flees when the heat is on.

Hitler is our culture's figurehead for evil.  If a movie wants to show that someone is a bad guy, make him a Nazi.   If you don't like your political opponent, make him out to be Hitler.

The problem with the constant comparison to Hitler is that it doesn't show intensity of magnitude.  Acting out evil is on a continuum.  So George might be like Hitler in the same way that star basketball player Bobby Jones of Parkway Elementary school is like Michael Jordan or like my Ford Taurus is like a leer jet.  Certainly, there are similarities, but there are many extreme differences as well.  Somehow I think George would have stopped short of preaching that we should exterminate an entire ethnic group.

I think Tom is right in this sense:  I found it much more healing and profitable to think about my background and upbringing and figure out what attracted me to the Assembly as opposed to trying to figure out the "evil dudes" that kept me there.

Good perspective.  Thanks.

No, George did not need to preach extermination of ethnic groups.  He did however indoctrinate us to believe that we had the one true vision and that leaving fellowship was akin to leaving the Lord.  What Hitler did on a physical level, Geftakys did on a spiritual level.

God bless,
Marcia

[moonflower2]

The fact is Verne, is that most people hate freedom!!!!    

Thomas Maddux

Tom, I don't think you can make a blanket statement with this one.

[vernecarty]

I think a caveat is in order.
There are a number of folk formerly associated with George Geftakys, who in my view have completely cleared themselves in the matter. One of them is Tom Maddux.
I could barely contain myself a few weeks ago when someone came onto this BB and despite all the man has said and done since threw that back in his face.
I want to make it abundantly clear that what I say about the leadership formerly associated with Geftakys must not be applied to those men who have made things right.
For people to talk about compassion and forgiveness, and still excoriate those who have clearly repented of their involvement is wrong. We should not accept that from anybody.
If you defend Geftakys and the abomination he erected. I am your sworn enemy...believe it...

  What Hitler did on a physical level, Geftakys did on a spiritual level.
God bless,
Marcia

The harshest language in the Bible is not diercted at mass murderers, it is directed at those beings, whether angelic or human, who knew better, yet by their unholy and wicked conduct caused the destruction of others...think about it...whether fallen angels are false prophets, my Bible does not offer either an olive branch...


Verne

[Mark C.]

Hi Everyone!

  Very important discussion here with some very good points being made on either side of this issue of "evil in Leadership."

  The question of "GG's evil", and does it deserve our consideration, should not be seen as just an attempt to shift the blame from our own foolishness to the Assembly, or as a means to achieve victim status.

  As Jesus, Paul, etc. demonstrated there is "The Spirit of error", as well as," The Spirit of Truth", to consider when trying to properly judge the question of good and evil.

  In other words, there are certain teachings/practices in religion that take on a machine like process that mislead and dominate lives.

  While it is certainly necessary to evaluate what it was in me that allowed me to become a cog in that machine, we must also learn to avoid  becoming a part of a similar Assembly operation, like the Bible church in the Valley that Tom mentioned.  This will mean that we consider how abusive churches operate as systimized error.

  The absolute bedrock of cults, abusive churches, Phariseeism, and religious groups gripped by the wrong spirit is an arrogant refusal to be entreated.

  Dave M. started this discussion with a mention of instances of the moral failures of Christian leaders, but this does not describe "the spirit of evil", just the moral failure of a particular individual.

 For a system of evil to develop from such a failure a means of cover-up needs to be constructed so that the leader can continue in power ( evil systems seek power and effective domination of as many members as they can).

  Jesus did describe his children as "sheep" and this is not a flattering description, as they were often wandering, dumb, needing a shepherd, or being eaten by wolves.  So it would seem that Tom's generaliztion re. "the fear of freedom" is probably an accurate one; we desperately need a Good Shepherd!!

  Jesus' angst and blame was directed toward evil religion as a developed system that did victimize "sheep", and never against the deceived and abused little one.  

  Yes, we must admit we were "foolish" to be led astray, but most of us were innocent/sincere in our willingness to be led down the garden path.  

   I don't think that Jesus' solution to the above problem is for these victimized sheep to learn how to become "self actualized critical thinkers" who are able to transform their easily suckered attitudes into one that is resistant to domination.  We can become so "critical" in our thinking we can become totally jaundized in our views.

  If you are a generally easy going, and a well intentioned person who tends to "believe the best," you probably will continue to have that personality.

 So, if the kind of self evaluation we involve ourselves in is centered on "trying to identify what it was that was in me that allowed my victimization", we probably will be disapppointed with our progress in building up our character.  We could become like David M. and just reject all faith in Christ as being the work of charlatans seeking to take advantage of us.

  There are strong minded/willed individuals who despise "the sucker that is born every minute", and the weakness of a cult member.  They feel these people need to "take responsibility for their own mistakes and stop blaming others for their weaknesses, or shifting blame to former leaders."

  Jesus stated that false religion could "make" monsters, and "offend" little ones', and this places the onus on the false use of religious authority.  The victim submits due to their inncorrect belief that this power is from God and they obey based on a sincere desire to follow God.

  Each individual will need specialized help in finding recovery, but to truly lift one damaged by false religion we can't expect that all former members will be able to transform their personalities via reflection on their own weakness and attempts to change that aspect of their souls.

  Honesty is an integral part of a healthy Christian life, not because self introspection leads to holiness, but because it should lead to putting all our of hope in God's love for us.  

  One thing that God's love for me means is that he "hates" the evil that wounded my soul and that I have a right to be very angry with those that do these evil things.  God is not angry or seeking to blame the victims of abuse for their foolishness.

                                           God Bless,  Mark C.

  

  

      

 

[editor]

The harshest language in the Bible is not diercted at mass murderers, it is directed at those beings, whether angelic or human, who knew better, yet by their unholy and wicked conduct caused the destruction of others...think about it...whether fallen angels are false prophets, my Bible does not offer either an olive branch...

I'm not sure you can say this Verne.  Pretty much everyone falls into this category to one degree or another.

Certainly there have been countless thousands who once were wicked sinners, against God, who repented.  Isn't that an olive branch?

Brent

[vernecarty]

I'm not sure you can say this Verne.  Pretty much everyone falls into this category to one degree or another.

Certainly there have been countless thousands who once were wicked sinners, against God, who repented.  Isn't that an olive branch?

Brent

There is a sin unto death.
Clearly all of us are sinners and  every sinner who has repented, has been forgiven.
This is where it gets dicey Brent.
The Bible clearly identifies categories of creatures for whom there will be no forgiveness.
By extension I conclude that for them repentance is not possible,  - fallen angels for example.
Hebrews is even more specific is saying the redemption has not been made for them so even if they repented, they have no advocate.
Does this mean that God is not love?
No. It just means his redeeming love does not extend to fallen angels.
Even those who argue that Christ died for the sin of every man must recognize this awful category of men described in Scipture. The Lord said their father was the devil himself.
The language Christ uses against religious hypocrisy is terrifying.
James warns about harsher judgment for those recognized as leaders.
Peter and Jude likens the punishment of false teachers/prophets to that reserved for fallen angelic beings.
The category is separate. It is distinct. We all DO NOT fall into it.
Verne

p.s I am afraid that those who fail to see this will never agree with, nor understand my own passion about all this...

[vernecarty]

Hi Everyone!

     I don't think that Jesus' solution to the above problem is for these victimized sheep to learn how to become "self actualized critical thinkers" who are able to transform their easily suckered attitudes into one that is resistant to domination.  We can become so "critical" in our thinking we can become totally jaundized in our views.

 
                                           God Bless,  Mark C.

 
    

Mark has unearthed something here that has bothered me for a long time and I did not regconize it until he said this.
The talk about us all looking for some kind of "father figure" and being "gullible" can indeed lead to a kind of spiritual cynicism. One would almost be led to believe by an over-preoccupation with our own culpability that there are no Christian leaders worthy of real trust and genuine affection and loyalty.
I think  this is what deep down burns most fiercely in my gut.
Christ intended His shepherds to be like Him!
It is right and proper that we admire, we honor, we  imitate that which is right and holy and pure in the ones God raises up as examples to the flock.
Given the legitimacy of such a disposition, it is a thing of unpseakable horror, that the love that would accrue to God's true servants, as a direct result of our love for God Himself, should have been appropriated by a vile man like Geftakys.
It makes one feel like a used whore. It was indeed spiriual harlotry -  sickening beyond comprehension.
There are faithful servants of Jesus Christ walking the earth today; ones in whom the familial resemblance is unmistakable.
Let us not become spiritual cynics...!
Verne


That ye be not slothful, but followers of them who through faith and patience inherit the promises

   ...whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation..

[outdeep]

  I don't think that Jesus' solution to the above problem is for these victimized sheep to learn how to become "self actualized critical thinkers" who are able to transform their easily suckered attitudes into one that is resistant to domination.  We can become so "critical" in our thinking we can become totally jaundized in our views.

  If you are a generally easy going, and a well intentioned person who tends to "believe the best," you probably will continue to have that personality.

 So, if the kind of self evaluation we involve ourselves in is centered on "trying to identify what it was that was in me that allowed my victimization", we probably will be disapppointed with our progress in building up our character.  We could become like David M. and just reject all faith in Christ as being the work of charlatans seeking to take advantage of us.

I guess I am not completely following the thinking here.  Of course, Jesus isn't asking everyone to become the Bible Answer man and have every rational argument to prevent falling into any deception out there, but I don't think that is what is meant by going back and understanding why we came into the Assembly.  Doing this is not putting the blame on the sheep, it is helping the sheep make better decisions next time.

If you are a generally easy going, and a well intentioned person who tends to "believe the best," you probably will continue to have that personality.

Wouldn't it be beneficial for such a person to acknowlege that he has such a personality to he could "catch himself" relinquishing the authority of his life over to another?  If he thinks about it and identifies this as a problem, then he might have a chance to do some soul searching or get some counseling before he blindly goes off and surrenders himself to the Bible church in the valley.

On a personal note, I have attributed my draw to the Assembly to the fact that I have a non-confrontive personality and I am so distrustful of my own person (to the point that I feel physically terrified in confrontation) that I naturally defer to those who have stronger authority - these feelings were beat into me by my over-controlling mother and a passive dad who never gave me any personality tools to defend myself.  Identifying these problems haven't cured them (I still struggle with confrontation and it has caused me problems in my parenting).  However, in idenfiying this personality weakness, I have been able to compensate with my strengths and learn from role models so that I don't keep falling into the same patterns.

General note:
In all this discussion, no one is saying that George or the leadership don't have an account to give.  George's attracting us to be our "father figure" and then turning around and living solely for himself indeed falls under the general heading of "it is better for a millstone to be tied around his neck".  May God have mercy upon him.  But, that doesn't preclude doing some self-examination.  After all, most people saw through George from day 1.  We didn't.  Why?

[vernecarty]

 And Pharaoh rose up in the night, he, and all his servants, and all the Egyptians; and there was a great cry in Egypt; for there was not a house where there was not one dead.

God's judgment of evil has a repercussive effect. Those of you who have studied the passage know that the Passover is often incorrectly interpreted as God's "passing over" the Isaraelites during the Egyptian night of terror.
It does not mean that. A more precise sense is that God "hovered" over His people, so protecting them from the rampaging destroyer. If there is a place where people should feel relatively safe and protected, it is in the company of men and women of God.
It is interesting that the servants of Pharaoh begun to get the message much sooner than he did.
If you read bwtween the lines, it was in fact they that made it clear that they had had enough and probably prevailed upon him...

 And the Egyptians were urgent upon the people, that they might send them out of the land in haste; for they said, We be all dead men.

The signs of fall-out were everywhere in the assemblies.
The casualities were by any measure stunning.
Even those folk in leadership felt the stroke personally
Look at what happened to so many of the most precious of our possessions, our off-spring.
It is the responsibility of godly men an women in this world, so far as God enables them, to restrain evil.
If we fail in this, the consequences may extend to more than just the perpetrators...
Verne


When I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die; and thou givest him not warning, nor speakest to warn the wicked from his wicked way, to save his life; the same wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at thine hand. Yet if thou warn the wicked, and he turn not from his wickedness, nor from his wicked way, he shall die in his iniquity; but thou hast delivered thy soul.

[Mark C.]

Hi Verne!

  If one's church experiences, and relationships with church leaders, are mostly unpleasant memories it's easy to understand why such would be wary of church folks---" once burned twice shy!"

  Some Christians seem to think the cure for this bad experience is to analyze one's own weak character and figure out how to make myself resistant to more of the same.  Not a bad idea, but there's more to recovery than this.

  As an example: if I'm the kind of person who is very impressionable, compliant, ready to accept what a person says as sincere, not sure of my own opinions, and generally one who does not like to argue or criticize others (this is me, btw  ) I'm supposed to try and alter this my personality.

 Now, there are good and bad aspects of the above personality, and if I try and perform self psychotherapy on myself I will end up constantly falling back into my natural manner of responding w/o really helping myself.

  To avoid becoming like David M., where one rejects the Gospel, it is more important to identify the errrors promulgated in the Assembly, vs. the weakness in my own personality.  I'm not saying that there is no benefit to understanding our own psychology, but that self introspection by itself is not a basis for getting better.

  I see recovery as a discovery of a true and strong faith in Christ that enjoys all the benefits of an eternally secure blessed relationship with our loving God.   This gift based relationship is not strengthened by the trolling through my soul musing on what a foolish and weak person I must have been to fall for GG's deceptions.  God does not hold this against me, and I don't think we should kick ourselves over it either.

   Cynicism is a reaction (actually an over-reaction) to being disappointed.  It causes us to instantly react in an negative emotional manner to anything that looks or sounds like our former bad experiences.  Cynicism sets up a standard for others behavior (or our own) of perfection that can never be reached-- as in, "all Christians are hypocrites."  This means that the cynic can avoid ever getting into an environment where they can be hurt again.

    If we blur the distinction between good and evil by suggesting that GG was not all that evil, just a little misguided, or that the destructive power of the Assembly was not all that bad we create the largest block to avoiding becoming cynical.

  Why?  Because blurred distinctions can only lead to the conclusion that God is ambivalent re. one's behavior---- as in, "God loves GG just as much as he loves the sisters he seduced!"  "after all, we all sin and GG couldn't have gotten away with this if these sisters weren't willing"   Do we really think that Jesus puts just as much blame on the deceived as the deceiver?

   Jesus was not ambivalent re. false religion, and was scathing in his denouncement of these.  His rebuke was centered on their abusive practices, and he strongly defended the victims of this evil.   His outrage should be our outrage and his defense of the victims should also be our defense of victims!

   There are different kinds of sin, but not all sin becomes what the Pharisees created in their false religious system.  Yes we all sin, but most of us will never become cult leaders who deceive and damage God's little ones.  GG has not only done evil he has become evil himself due to his denial of his sin and continuance in the same.

   If we can't make the above clear distinctions then we will be very confused in trying to figure out what God really thinks about me and my Christian life.  However, God does care very much about how we treat one another, and loving behavior is good and abusive behavior is bad!  When abusive behavior becomes the continual daily practice of a group we can judge that the group has become evil.  When a group, though they may have many faults, practice loving behavior we can conclude they are Jesus' disciples.

                            God Bless,  Mark C.

    

  

[vernecarty]

Hi Verne!

  If one's church experiences, and relationships with church leaders, are mostly unpleasant memories it's easy to understand why such would be wary of church folks---" once burned twice shy!"

  Some Christians seem to think the cure for this bad experience is to analyze one's own weak character and figure out how to make myself resistant to more of the same.  Not a bad idea, but there's more to recovery than this.

  As an example: if I'm the kind of person who is very impressionable, compliant, ready to accept what a person says as sincere, not sure of my own opinions, and generally one who does not like to argue or criticize others (this is me, btw  ) I'm supposed to try and alter this my personality.

 Now, there are good and bad aspects of the above personality, and if I try and perform self psychotherapy on myself I will end up constantly falling back into my natural manner of responding w/o really helping myself.

I am the opposite. When I became an elder at the last church I attended, I went to the other extreme because of knowing myself so well. I really went out of my way to defer to others in leadership exacly because I knew that in the natural I am the kind of guy to take the bull lby the horns. Situations about which I had personal misgivings and unease, I would often be hesitant to speak too agressively. No doubt there were men around Geftakys with the same kind of attitude.
I must say in retrospect, I made some poor decisions. God makes us the the way he does for a reason and we all have our particular contribution. If we are truly walking with Him and being led by His Spirit, personality should not matter that much. There are times when the exact need of the situation is someone to boldy speak up and state the obvious.
If everyone is wondering about how it's going to be preceived and what other people are going to think, it is amazing what can ultimately be tolerated or excused.

 

To avoid becoming like David M., where one rejects the Gospel, it is more important to identify the errrors promulgated in the Assembly, vs. the weakness in my own personality.  I'm not saying that there is no benefit to understanding our own psychology, but that self introspection by itself is not a basis for getting better.

Anyone who subsequently rejects the gospel of Jesus Christ never truly knew Him. Period.
I don't care if the devil himself grabbed you by the throat...

 

    If we blur the distinction between good and evil by suggesting that GG was not all that evil, just a little misguided, or that the destructive power of the Assembly was not all that bad we create the largest block to avoiding becoming cynical.

  Why?  Because blurred distinctions can only lead to the conclusion that God is ambivalent re. one's behavior---- as in, "God loves GG just as much as he loves the sisters he seduced!"  "after all, we all sin and GG couldn't have gotten away with this if these sisters weren't willing"    Do we really think that Jesus puts just as much blame on the deceived as the deceiver?

   Jesus was not ambivalent re. false religion, and was scathing in his denouncement of these.  His rebuke was centered on their abusive practices, and he strongly defended the victims of this evil.   His outrage should be our outrage and his defense of the victims should also be our defense of victims!   There are different kinds of sin, but not all sin becomes what the Pharisees created in their false religious system.  Yes we all sin, but most of us will never become cult leaders who deceive and damage God's little ones.  GG has not only done evil he has become evil himself due to his denial of his sin and continuance in the same.

Mark this is what I find so maddening. People who seem bent on mitigating the enormity of what Geftakys did, and somehow turning this around to accuse those he damaged and who are rightfully incensed. These are the same kind of folk, who would have in the midst of the abuse advised the suffering to "love" , "forgive" and "trust God for the leadership" and remind us that "everybody is a sinner". The failure of these folk to make clear distinctions as to the nature and heinousness of George's transgression convinces me that they are not be taken at all seriously.


 

If we can't make the above clear distinctions then we will be very confused in trying to figure out what God really thinks about me and my Christian life.  However, God does care very much about how we treat one another, and loving behavior is good and abusive behavior is bad!  When abusive behavior becomes the continual daily practice of a group we can judge that the group has become evil.  When a group, though they may have many faults, practice loving behavior we can conclude they are Jesus' disciples.

                            God Bless,  Mark C.

 

I would go further. The inability to make clear distinctions results in much  more than confusion. It aids and abets the carnage of the wicked.
Verne

p.s I once sat in a meeting with two officials of the CMA discussing some serious problems with one their own.
One of them commented to me over the strong stand that I had personally taken:

"Christians are the only people that shoot their wounded".

This is a Roman Catholic mentality that resulted in disgraceful policies in their handling of blatant sin.
When it comes to the sheep, spare no expense for their recovery...
When it comes to shepherds, perhaps they should not be shot - just put out to pasture.
God derserves the best we can offer...

[Mark C.]

Dave and Verne,

  The reason that you are not following how my comments fit into the topic is because I have been gone all week and have just dropped into the conversation without knowing the whole context.

  I am not responding directly to the postings on this thread, rather to emails I recently received that deal with personal responsiblity, and victimization, that have somewhat to do with the discussion here.  I apologize for not being clearer by providing a better context for the posts.

  I agree with both you and Verne that we need to understand our weaknesses and must work against quiet acquiesence in giving into their domination of our lives, but is another thing altogether to put all the burden for being deceived and abused on the victim vs. the victimizer, and it is to this that I speak.

  There are those who believe that GG is not to be blamed at all and all former Assembly members should just admit they were idiots and take responsibility for their following him.  They think that we are all equally sinful in God's eyes and could just as easily fall into the same kind of hypocrisy that GG did. "Just go out and have a beer with George and let him know that you're his friend and he'll come around" my recent emailer suggested.

  Understanding that the Assembly is an evil system is not meant to help us become "bible answer men", or an effort at revenge against GG, rather it allows us to to recover what was lost in that system: my relationship with God,  and my personal dignity and worth as a child of God. (not in God's eyes, but in my own.)

   Jesus and the Apostles (especially Paul) spent a great deal of time talking about deceivers and evil religious pretenders in regard to the damage they can inflict on innocent folks. In Galatians Paul warned that a certain belief system could "separate us from life in Christ."  Paul also warned "the strong" in Romans that they could "destroy" the faith of another brother.

  I do not believe this was talking about the loss of salvation, but the loss of the experience of that life and faith in time and space.  In other words we are saved, but feel like we're in hell!  

  Again, we are mostly sheep like, not soaring predators  , and the means to help former members will probably not include teaching them to "buck-up and get on with their lives" by their own intestinal fortitude.  Some have had their guts kicked in for so long they have no strength left for such self renovation.

  Inner strength is promised via the communication of God's very personal interest and care for the wounded pilgrim.  We should all attempt to be those who offer that cup of cold water, or washing of feet, to these needy souls.  I know that is the desire of  Dave, Verne, Tom, and most who post here, so forgive my tirade against the emailer via this thread.

                                              God Bless,  Mark C.