On the Topic of Evil in Leadership!!!!

[Oscar]

Dave, I thought you were "through with" me.

Thanks Vern, Tom, is it true that you nominated G.G. to be elder???  Your daughter told me you did. (I could have misunderstood her.)

No.  GG nominated himself and Steve Irons.

Tom, you were "A leading Brother" in the assembly for many years. Why didn't you stop G.G. whan It was your responsiblity? Had you done your duty perhaps many people would have avoided his abuses??

Glad you asked.  I resisted GG more than all the other leading brothers put together.  No one would stand with me. The others, Steve Irons, Mark Miller, Dan Notti, Tim G., Jim Hayman, Keith Walker,  were too busy supporting GG.  This went on for over 10 years.  Secretly they sometimes disagreed with GG.  But they would never confront him.    I did.

Emotionally, they used to beat the hell out of me. I regularly went through things that would probably have given you a nervous breakdown.  Not a single one has ever apologized to me for that.

But, I also was a true believer.  Where could you go if you left...etc. etc.

Steve Irons is a man who demonstrates a brokeness and repentance for his role as a former leader in the assembly. Yet, I have never heard, read anywhere that you have taken any blame. 

If you associated with Christians more, you just might know more of what goes on.

 On the contrary you jump in where you are not appreciated.

If you choose to post anti-Christian foolishness on this public BB, you will get some flak. 

BTW, are you under the impression that your post was appreciated?

You make statements meant to hurt and confuse people.

People who live in glass houses....

Tom remember it was I who told you about this B.B.? I called you to tell you that Rachel Geftakys would like to the name of the woman G.G. commited adultery with. (I only knew of the elder who confronted him.) You told me that "No" you weren't giving me the name. You then told me in your polite manner that "Rachel needs a counselor!) and "By!"

No David, I didn't give you, or anyone else who asked the lady's name.  If these folks wish to come out and declare themselves, that is their choice.

Why should an old lady be exposed and shamed publicly AGAIN?  And that before her husband, children, grandchildren, maybe even great grandchildren by now?  She had to live through it once back when GG was disciplined for his actions by the Plymouth Bretheren. Should she now have to be dragged through all the details again after all these years?

But then...not being a sensitive liberal maybe I don't understand these things as well as you.

  How is it Tom that you have controle of this B.B. Your great leadership skills???

Dave, I've got em all fooled. 

Thomas Maddux

[vernecarty]

A really good preacher will convince you that God loves you.  That's his job, and if he does it well, you'll believe.  I think they call that being an evangelist and a teacher.  We need guys like that.

Verne,

Why did we continue to associate with George, even though we knew things were wrong?  Little by little, some more than others, our consciences were seared.  That's all.

Brent

I agree Brent. My point was, as you pointed out, that our consciences were not that way in the beginning, but for some they became that way.
The average person did not know a fraction of what workers and leading brothers who saw George up close and personal knew. Samuel told me about how he and Roger would plead with George and even pray with him but how he remained essentially unentratable.

It was the job of those charged with leadership to remove a man like this, no matter what it cost them!!

Tom's comment about the other men does not in the least surprise me.
They are indeed responsible for George could never have lasted as long as he did without their sanction.
They knew him for what he was. They made it their business to try and destroy anyone who dared to oppose this rampaging wolf in the midst.
The authority of the elder does not come from the flock (although they do recognize it), it does not come from the other elders, it does not come from district superintendents, it does not come field directors, it does not come from organizational presidents....

IT COMES FROM THE CHIEF SHEPHERD!


People who behaved the way these men did do not fear Him...
Verne

Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers,

[M2]

I been unable to connect, hence I post this from a library computer.

I’ve only skimmed the recent discussion on this thread due to time constraints.

It looks like MarkC and TomM are basically saying the same thing.

The way we think affects our outlook, attitude, modus operandi (correct expression??).

Our thinking/perspective on God’s love for us changes us in the inner man.

Marcia

[Mark Kisla]

THe nonscriptural saying;
"Give a Man a fish, he eats for a day.
Teach a Man to fish, he eats for a lifetime."
I think this can be true in our spiritual lives too.
An unhealthy place of fellowship micro manages and controls it's members lives, resulting in bondage.
A healthy fellowship will teach you how to properly study the Bible and apply it practically to your own life, resulting  in liberty and growth.

[vernecarty]

THe nonscriptural saying;
"Give a Man a fish, he eats for a day.
Teach a Man to fish, he eats for a lifetime."
I think this can be true in our spiritual lives too.
An unhealthy place of fellowship micro manages and controls it's members children's lives, resulting in bondage.
A healthy fellowship will teach you how to properly study the Bible and apply it practically to your own life, resulting  in liberty and growth.

I hope you don't mind my edit Mark.
Something strange would happen to people who came under long-term influence of George and Betty akin to a second childhood.
One of the most dramatic personality changes I ever observed was in Bob Ford.
I first met him in the early eighties and remembered him as a rather serious looking and sober kind of guy. I bought my Darby bible from him.
I saw him a number of years later the last time I visited Fullerton (about the time the Irons were really going through it. I remember being stunned at how sad and remote Steve appeared compared to how I remembered him) and I almost did not recognize Bob as the same man. He probably wondered why I stared at him the way I did.
He had morphed into a gum-chewing almost effeminate appearing fellow nothing at all like the rather dignified VP of a company I had encountered a few years ago.
It was terribly sad to observe how he had changed, and not in my view for the better...
Verne "Macho" Carty 

[M2]

A pastor recently preached, and I agree with him, that the pharisee is such a nice guy that it is difficult to see through his 'good works' to the hypocrisy.
We were all blind following our blind guides.
The fruit and quick collapse of the great work has shown up 'this ministry' for what it really was, corrupt and evil.

Marcia

[Mark Kisla]

Here is a subtlety that I have come to recognize.  In the past, I would "spend time with The Lord," because if I didn't, I would miss out on what God had for me.  If I was faithful, I would get what He had, which was better than what the unfaithful guys got.

Do you guys think that the attitude that Brent had ( I had the same one ) Is the same attitude that the prodical sons brother had..... The more I do, the more I should get; the older faithful brother had a problem with the fathers response to his younger brother, but I think even more tragically the faithful son was missing out on really knowing his father.(Luke 15:31) I think he could have asked for almost anything and still been faithful.
 I believe that, 'to obey is better than sacrifice' but you get off track if  you think your works are going to get you more.(Matt 20:1-15)
I think God made it this way on purpose so you can't live the Christian life on cruise control. I believe God wants the relationship first.He's there waiting, if I'm miserable...it's my own fault.

[vernecarty]

A pastor recently preached, and I agree with him, that the pharisee is such a nice guy that it is difficult to see through his 'good works' to the hypocrisy.
We were all blind following our blind guides.
The fruit and quick collapse of the great work has shown up 'this ministry' for what it really was, corrupt and evil.

Marcia

I am sorry to have to tell you this Marcia but we can't even present that as an excuse.
Who is prepared to make the case that Geftakys was a nice guy?!
This is a man who  brutally excoriated the worker wife of someone I know who came to pick him up at the airport in Champaign in the only vehicle they had.
The man was livid.

"Don't you EVER come to pick me up in a car looking like that again, do you hear??!!"

Let the folk around him try to make the case that they never saw this putrid side of the man...
I bet you anything not a single one of them will...The Lord's Servant  huh?
There is more...always flying first class must have been a joy...the Lord's servant needed his rest you know...everybody else had to rough it in economy...


p.s Anybody trying to convince you that George Geftakys was ever anything other than a philandering, self-serving, and hypocritical apostate is stupid...and must assume the same about you...

Dave, I thought you were "through with" me.

Emotionally, they used to beat the hell out of me. I regularly went through things that would probably have given you a nervous breakdown.  Not a single one has ever apologized to me for that.


Thomas Maddux

You don't need me to defend you but I don't mind going on record as saying there is going to be hell to pay( in some ways already has ).
All of us, particularly former leaders, are going to have to face the music of divine scrutiny.
What a time that's going to be and God be merciful to us...
What kind of obstinate, prideful, and unrepentant so-called brother in Christ would not have attempted to make this right long ago??!!
You mean to tell me that not a single one of these players have been willing to say we were wrong and you were right??!! Oh I forgot, they are too busy feeling injured...
More proof of the pudding in my estimation.
I am assuming that you and Steve Irons have already worked this out...no?
Verne

[moonflower2]

I am sorry to have to tell you this Marcia but we can't even present that as an excuse.
Who is prepared to make the case that Geftakys was a nice guy?!

Yeah, I have to agree with Macho Man here.    I don't/didn't see GG as a pharisee, either. He wasn't what I'd consider to be a nice man, even from where I sat as a non-"worker" before the "outing" of his philandering, etc.

You don't need me to defend you but I don't mind going on record as saying there is going to be hell to pay( in some ways already has ).
All of us, particularly former leaders, are going to have to face the music of divine scrutiny.
What a time that's going to be and God be merciful to us...
What kind of obstinate, prideful, and unrepentant so-called brother in Christ would not have attempted to make this right long ago??!!
You mean to tell me that not a single one of these players have been willing to say we were wrong and you were right??!! Oh I forgot, they are too busy feeling injured...
More proof of the pudding in my estimation.
I am assuming that you and Steve Irons have already worked this out...no?
Verne

I find this interesting, too. Could it be that they were so brainwashed into thinking that Tom was the "bad guy" that they can't break out entirely from their fantasy world to apologize to him?

[editor]

Yeah, I have to agree with Macho Man here.    I don't/didn't see GG as a pharisee, either. He wasn't what I'd consider to be a nice man, even from where I sat as a non-"worker" before the "outing" of his philandering, etc.

I find this interesting, too. Could it be that they were so brainwashed into thinking that Tom was the "bad guy" that they can't break out entirely from their fantasy world to apologize to him?

Most of them are just too embarassed.  They don't want to be reminded of what they were involved in, and are busy serving in their new places, or trying to find one.   They were holy, and don't want to be told, or reminded that they were mistaken.

That leads to thinking about why....and that might cause them to conclude that weren't as sincere, or as bold for Christ as they imagine.

I've been through all these emotions and thoughts myself, and so has every truly repentant leader I've met.

Many are of the impression that they barely knew George, etc.  This may be true for some, but not for workers, and certainly not for Itinerate's and full-timers.  Sadly, most of the latter group have not come clean.

Brent

[Mark Kisla]

I hope you don't mind my edit Mark.
Something strange would happen to people who came under long-term influence of George and Betty akin to a second childhood.

What I observed was the loss of joy in some, (not all)  their self respect was stolen from them.(like they were bigger sinners than the rest of us)
I  clearly remember George in a STL meeting stating that 'He loved to study and was fascinated with the psychology of man'.

[Mark C.]

David M.

  I need to go to bed, but after quickly reading the thread saw your comments that you made to Tom and had to respond.

  I do appreciate the initial point you raised about "The Topic Of Evil in Leadership" and obviously it has struck a nerve here on the BB, but your last post attacking Tom is out of place.

  Other than Al, I probably know Tom better than most on this BB.  I can still remember waiting for him at Hillcrest Park while he had his bros. meeting (he was my ride back to the Valley every Sunday). 

  On these beautiful summer evenings the windows would be open and I could here Tom getting his, though I could not make out exactly what was being said.  I could tell that one voice, GG's, took control and squashed any rebellion. 

  During the ride back to the Valley Tom looked like a tea kettle on the stove ready to boil over, but he never talked about what went on in those meetings.  Talk about a wounded pilgrim!! ------  Tom was definitely not in it for the power, or any other personal perk; he, like many of us, thought he was serving God's purpose

  Though it may seem like Tom and I are involved in the throws of some great debate, I can assure you that I only have great admiration and affection for Tom.  I truly appreciate his views and questions, because I know that he is concerned about me and others here who may read what I post.  That is, he doesn't want me to get out in left field, nor lead others that way either. 

   There are any number of people who e-mail me with questions, challenges, etc. and I find these very helpful to my thinking.  It is another thing altogether, (and speaking of evil), to attempt to "sow discord", which is a very deadly sin.  To put it succinctly: Don't make personal attacks!  If you have a point to make, like this thread as you started it, feel free to try and argue it.

  I know, I know, there are others who do this, and I probably have done it as well in the heat of some argument, but you're way out of control on this one.

  Sometime this week I will try and respond with a further explanation in answer to Tom's latest post to me.  Maybe Tom and I, as Marcia stated, are saying the same thing, and that is the beauty of this venue because we can define our terms and get our thoughts expressed more clearly with each attempt (at least I hope so  )

   Chomping at the bit to respond, but I got to get a few hours sleep tonight--------------   God Bless,  Mark C.

[vernecarty]

Most of them are just too embarassed.  They don't want to be reminded of what they were involved in, and are busy serving in their new places, or trying to find one.   They were holy, and don't want to be told, or reminded that they were mistaken.

That leads to thinking about why....and that might cause them to conclude that weren't as sincere, or as bold for Christ as they imagine.

I've been through all these emotions and thoughts myself, and so has every truly repentant leader I've met.

Many are of the impression that they barely knew George, etc.  This may be true for some, but not for workers, and certainly not for Itinerate's and full-timers.  Sadly, most of the latter group have not come clean.

Brent

It is quite remarkable how looks can be deceiving.
If you had asked me, spiritual novice that I was, I would have said that every one of those brothers mentioned by Tom were strong men spiritually. No one believes that now and they are quite right.
There are some important lessons to be learned here.
Many of the men around Geftakys mistook weakness for humility.
There was the case of the brother in Champaign who was universally deemed unfit for service by his would-be charges.
Complaint after complaint was lodged. At least one worker wrote a letter.
Yet the men serving with him stood around like eunuchs, which they in fact were for he had Betty's blessing.(you know what was in her jars back in Fullerton; if not ask Brent)
It should have been their call and if the flock was indeed their first pirority it would have been dealt with.
Serving with weak men, is like going into battle with a blind paraplegic "watching" your back- can't see nothing can't do nothing! Worse than useless and could get you killed.
I once served in a situation where eight previous elders had left in frustration and some in bitterness.
I did not know this at the time I was recruited and was too stupid to ask the right questions.
That kind of turnover of spiritual leadership, even in a transient community, is quite telling!
The Lord had great mercy on me and He will one day give me His opinon.
Interestingly enough, that the one elder who had remained there all this time with little or no change in the circumstances that led to the departure of so many good men...he is still there, the only one left of the previous entire governing board. Old "faithful" huh?
While I know we are all of one body, when it comes to spiritual things and particularly co-laboring, you have to pick your companions with extreme care...boy did I learn that the hard way! Be picky...be very picky!

Yeah, I have to agree with Macho Man here.    I don't/didn't see GG as a pharisee, either. He wasn't what I'd consider to be a nice man, even from where I sat as a non-"worker" before the "outing" of his philandering, etc.

I find this interesting, too. Could it be that they were so brainwashed into thinking that Tom was the "bad guy" that they can't break out entirely from their fantasy world to apologize to him?

If they were brainwashed before, their excommunication of George should have opened up their eyes doncha think?
They did not have to break out of their fantasy world for it literally came crashing down around their heads.
Had I been in that situation, I would have actively sought out any and everyman who had sounded the alarm and repented in dust and ashes, particularly those who were formerly in leadership.
They seemed more interested in shutting down Steve and Margaret's website.
It is still painful to me to think that a man like Samuel could have stooped to that level of connivance.
This would in my view, been the first and most critical step in the process of redemption of their integrity and I certianly think this was possiible. Why would any man of spiritual discernment want to appear before the throne  to endure the cries of accusaton that will certainly come from the mouths of many?
Far better to settle accounts here...far, far better!!


Verne

[M2]

Verne,

I did say "blind guides" plural.  Some had the 'privilege' of seeing George adamant for righteousness eh??  but that was a select few.  However, George had his faithful ones who were nice guys.


MarkC and TomM,

Hope you don't mind me saying so, but I did not read DavidM's comments in the same tone as you did.  IMO it was an inquiry that got a response from Tom, and it's probably a good thing that Tom had that opportunity to re-state his case.  I see David as one who was wounded by the system that George built.

God bless,
Marcia

[vernecarty]

Dave, I thought you were "through with" me.


Emotionally, they used to beat the hell out of me. I regularly went through things that would probably have given you a nervous breakdown. 
Thomas Maddux

One of the things that I have wondered about is the hight tresh-hold for pain that so many demonstrated in the assemblies. While it is hard to precisely reflect on what our exact thinking and feeling was at the time, one has to ask the question:

Why did anyone put up with any of this?!!!!!

I now have a simple policy. If I come to the conclusion that someone is ungodly and a religious hypocrite, I consider them worse than a pagan and I treat the accordingly. I don't care what they call themselves. This is Biblical for it is possible to be worse than an unbeliever.
I remember when I came to the conclusion that Betty was nothing but a manipulative shrew.
She came to Champaign and was going to have a meeting for all the hapless singles.
I frankly was curious to hear what she was going to say. I had a conference I had to attend as it turns out so that I would miss the first session and told her puppet Tom Lessares that I would be back in tme for the next two sessions.
With great officiousness he informed me that if I could not attend all of the sessions, Betty did not want me attending any. This was a very easy call.
Why is it that the fright, flight or fight syndrom did not kick in with more urgency in view of what some folk had to endure under these thugs? I stil vividly remember Dan Notti roughly shoving me and sitting in the meeting trembling over my fear for the way I nearly reacted...my restraint was entirely a matter of training...my gut reaction was scary...
Verne

p.s. some of you did not only suffer the abuse personally, it also happened to your spouses and your children...thank God, for some that is where the line was finally crossed...