On the Topic of Evil in Leadership!!!!

[Mark Kisla]

Dan Notti roughly shoving me
p.s. some of you did not only suffer the abuse personally, it also happened to your spouses and your children

"Assembly Bad"

[lenore]

March 22:

After reading some of postings on this thread. I wanted to contribute these thoughts.

Dictionary Meaning:
The Complete Christian Disctionary for Home and School ----
Evil: adj: vry bad; wicked, sinful; harmful, evil thoughts
Evil: noun: Great wickedness, difficulty, or tragedy
""Out of men's hearts come evil thoughts [Mark 7:21]"
The only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing.

Wicked: adj: Morally very bad, evil; sinful

Wickedness: n. Sin, evil; extreme immorality.

Offend: v. 1. To sin, transgress
                2. to make angry
                3. to hurt somebody's feelings
                4. to be unpleasant or disagreeable

offense: n. 1. A wrong, crime, sin.

Offensive: adj:
1. Unpleasant, disagreeable,
2. Attacking or used for attacking.
                noun:
1. An aggressive movement or attack
2. The position or attitude of attack.


PSALM 139: 23-24:
NKJV:
Search me, O God and know my heart
Try me, and know my anxieties
And see if there is any wicked way in me
And lead me in the way everlasting


NEW CENTURY VERSION:
God, examine me and know my heart
Test me and know my thoughts
See if there is any bad thing in me
Lead in the way you set long ago.

THE NEW ENGLISH BIBLE
Examine me, O God, and know my thoughts
test me, and understand my misgivings
Watch lest I follow any path that grieves thee;
guide me in the ancient ways

NIV:
Search me, O God, and know my heart
test me, and know my anxious thoughts
See if there is any offensive way in me
and lead me to the way everlasting


MATTHEW 7: 1-5: NEW CENTURY VERSION
Don't judge other people, and you will not be judged.
You will be judged the same way that you judge others. And the forgiveness you give to others will be given to you.
Why do you notice the little piece of dust that is in your brother's eye, but you dont notice the  big piece of wood that is in your own eye.
Why do you say to your brother, "Let me take that little pice of dust out of your eye?
Look at yourself first! You still have that big piece of wood in your own eye.
You are a hypocrite! First, take the wood out of your own eye. Then you will see clearly enough to take the dust out of your brother's eye.

[outdeep]

"Assembly Bad"

Assembly = Bad
Local Church of Witness Lee, Jehovah Witness, Mormans, Communism, homosexual groups = much badder.

Its only an assumption that if I didn't go into the Assembly that I would have been better off.

[Mark Kisla]

Its only an assumption that if I didn't go into the Assembly that I would have been better off.

I  agree with you only because God promises that all things work together for good, however I  would never  choose the assembly for my kids over where they now attend.

[Mark C.]

Hi Everyone! 

 Lenore: Thanks for the verses on evil and the different translations on the same.  I found them helpful.

  Marcia: I do not mind at all, because I consider your opinions very valuable.  I posted what I posted to David M. because they were not truthful.  Had I just let the lies sit there some who do not know Tom might have thought they were true.

 Mark K. and Dave S.: "Assembly bad": for those, like Al, who wandered spiritually for decades thinking he was defective as a believer; for those that took their lives; for the women GG seduced; for those, like Diane Stratman, who was openly shamed and ridiculed by GG, while those who knew better sat by and watched; for those like Tom who was forced out on the verge of a nervous breakdown; for the Irons, who GG attempted to turn the parents against the son via false accusations to save GG's own stinking face; for all the parents of children in the group who were rejected at the direction of GG (actually leading to splitting up some of these families!), to myself who was forced out, shunned, and was publicaly decried as a "vessel of the devil, etc." 

  The list goes on and so do the consequences!  To these comparisons of worse situations will be meaningless, because this BB is about the Assembly and dealing with what we experienced.  Having been on BB's where these other groups are mentioned (I even had an email exchange with the heir to David Koresh for a period of time) it is striking how similar some of the issues are that we talk about here.  It is the subtle powers in abuse that can be the most deadly! Yep, Assembly muy malo!

                                               God Bless,  Mark C.

[vernecarty]

Assembly = Bad
Local Church of Witness Lee, Jehovah Witness, Mormans, Communism, homosexual groups = much badder.

Its only an assumption that if I didn't go into the Assembly that I would have been better off.

It is a wonderful truth that God will take the most horrific circumstances and turn it to the good of His own and His own glory.
What do you think the chances are of someone like George Geftakys coming into place of fellowship where a Tom Maddiux or Brent Tr0ckman or Mark Campbell is and making a splash?
The greatest lesson of the era is a stern warning to the peole of God against idol worship.
This is a far cry from those still desprately trying to convince some of us that "ministry"
of George Geftakys will endure as either gold. silver or precious stones.
Somebody came on the BB recently and challenged us to consider what he had built.
Let me tell you what he built for it is right there in your Bible.

WOOD. HAY. STUBBLE.

Get over it.

The fire will most certainly consume it.

Why not argue that we all should commit adultery and murder that perchance God would raise up a Solomon?
The book of Romans speaks pointedly to the futility of this kind of reasoning.
Gorge Geftakys is a wicked man.
His work was a wicked work. God nonetheless was merciful and excercised preserving grace in the lives of many. He alone should be praised, not that abomination parading as a ministry.
Verne

[Mark Kisla]

Hi Everyone! 

 

 Mark K. and Dave S.: "Assembly bad": for those, like Al, who wandered spiritually for decades thinking he was defective as a believer; for those that took their lives; for the women GG seduced; for those, like Diane Stratman, who was openly shamed and ridiculed by GG, while those who knew better sat by and watched; for those like Tom who was forced out on the verge of a nervous breakdown; for the Irons, who GG attempted to turn the parents against the son via false accusations to save GG's own stinking face; for all the parents of children in the group who were rejected at the direction of GG (actually leading to splitting up some of these families!), to myself who was forced out, shunned, and was publicaly decried as a "vessel of the devil, etc." 

  The list goes on and so do the consequences!  To these comparisons of worse situations will be meaningless, because this BB is about the Assembly and dealing with what we experienced.  Having been on BB's where these other groups are mentioned (I even had an email exchange with the heir to David Koresh for a period of time) it is striking how similar some of the issues are that we talk about here.  It is the subtle powers in abuse that can be the most deadly! Yep, Assembly muy malo!

                                               God Bless,  Mark C.

Mark,
 For the record, for me personally....assembly bad.
For me personally...God is Good
If any of my comments have appeared to slight the hurt people suffered in the assembly, it was never my intention and I apologize.  Quite honestly I don't know if my post struck you that way, what I do know is, we're brothers and we make room for our imperfections.
Mark

[Mark C.]

Back to Back posts!

  I actually got home early today, and Sindy is up visiting the Grandkids, so it will be blazing keyboards tonight (sorry).

  Seriously, I want to answer Tom's last post to me.

  The question we are really trying to answer here is: What is the Christian life?

  I think this a problem for many of us because of our steady diet of GG's "holiness" teaching, along with the application of these beliefs in the place we used to call home.

  The quotation from the book, "The Purpose Driven life," tells me that I was wrong re. what I thought Tom was presenting as his view on a life of faith.  However, if what was written there is all there is to the Christian life than I would say the view needs to be widened. (the book may indeed have much more to say)

  I agree with what the author says, but only as far as it has to do with the area of behavior.  Please let me explain.  Tom quoted the verse in Philp. 2 "Work out your own salvation, etc."  Paul never intended for this verse to be the sum and substance of the Christian life in it's entirety.  The verse has to do with our actions, not our inner life. Though obviously the two are related.

  Some may be thinking that my objection to GG's teaching on "reckoning faith" is un-biblical, because---"hey, it's in the bible!"  Here's the big problem I have with it: Rom. 6 is talking about our behavior and the yielding of our lives to the service of righteousness. GG went beyond that to say that when we acted on our faith God then acted, via his Spirit, to make our hearts pure.

   If Pastor Warren is saying that we just need to do what is right, and in so doing we will be doing all that is necessary to grow into a mature healthy Christian then I can't agree.

  As we read the bible we must be careful of pulling out single verses, or even similar verses from different texts to create a theology (I am not accusing anyone of doing this, just trying to explain my position) as we can create these handy little 'self help' booklets that set out "how to ----------"  fill in the blank.  

  Paul in Philp. 2 is talking about how we treat one another in our fellowship in the great commision, and telling the Christians there that they not only are capable of doing what is right, but ought to do these good things.

 There are indeed benefits for choosing to obey God in my relationships for me as an individual, and a loss if I do not. Grace has not suspended the consequences for selfishness, pride, envy, pettiness, etc.  Paul said that if we have relations with a harlot "you sin against your own body."  Paul warned that we can harm anothers faith and work against the purpose of God by our wrong actions.

  In Philp 2 the first verse lays out conditions "if" we are to experience certain benefits from the Holy Spirit. ie. "comfort of love, etc."  Now, I will have to admit that this is enjoyed on the inside, but it is a large leap to say that the attitudes that he tells us to adopt are the means to "release the Spirit" in our lives, or to gain  the Spirit's help. Indeed Rom. 7 argues strongly against a view of the self actualized and sufficient Christian.

 Adopting the attitudes of Christ are the work of God in our lives.  Peter is a good illustration:  he read the book and knew the way to follow Jesus; he also had a very good teacher and he had the Holy Spirit!  He had to learn that the life of faith was not just based on the excercise of his faith, and in the process learned something about himself that he didn't know.  Jesus told him that as a young man his life was pretty much self directed, but when he got old he would discover that he would have to depend on others.

  How to summarize this in a succint fashion that helps us understand what I'm trying to say:

  As a Christian I can control my actions and choose behaviors that are good.  But, I also have a depth of fallen humanity that I still posess that the Spirit does not irradicate (take away).  Prayer, good deeds, sacraficial giving will not make my heart pure, nor take away from me the special kind of fallen person that still abides in me.  I am not saying that the old man must dominate our inner life, or that the Spirit does not move us toward purity, but it won't be by our "working out our salvation."

  Every person is different, but re. former Assembly members, we have some similiarities that must be noted and understood.  Handing out a booklet on "how to live the Christian life" to some former members might be helpful on some level, but it will not be effective to meet the needs of a broken heart.

  Thus Rom 8: 26:

         In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness.  We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groans that words can not express.

1.) In what "way"? The word groan is used twice in the previous verses because he's saying that we know we have a deep need to experience the completion of our salvation and that this creates a deep emotional groan.  The "same way" is  not a call to an action that will complete God's work in our life, but a waiting in expecation for God to move.

2.)Our Weakness: We feel this, and it ain't going away until we leave this life.  We need to be comforted in our feelings in light of the inner pain that we feel.

3.) The Spirit helps:  How?  He prays for us.  Okay, what practical and specific good is that?
     We don't understand what is going on inside of us, and seem to in some areas lack control over our inner life.  When we consider our weakness, it can cause us to doubt that there is any hope, or if this whole Christian thing just isn't working in my life. However, the main point of Rom. 8 that Paul is making is not to doubt God's sure love for me as an individual inspite of all that is contrary within or without!

  This is the point I've been trying to make on the Wounded Pilgrims thread:  Many former Assembly members do not have the ability to make melody in their hearts to the Lord anymore.  They now understand correct teaching on the basic doctrines, but they think God is far from them in their lives.  They have changed their thinking, but their feelings are still trapped in a habit of guilt, depression, shame, and above it all a feeling that their lives no longer are serving a purpose.

   The Spirit is groaning for them!  God is passionate in his concern for these ones'!   They have to see that this is true, and learn what it means to develop an emotional habit of hope!  God's love is not just some kind of generalized attitude, but a value that God has placed on each one of his children!

    Honesty will be our friend in this adventure.  You know what your weakness is, and if for all your reckoning you still have that dark spot in your soul it does not make you more spiritual to deny it.  

  I hope that helps explain my position a little better, but I do hope to try and develop it more on the Wounded Pilgrims thread as the weeks go by.  Feel free to question, argue, or otherwise continue this wonderful consideration.

                                                God Bless,  Mark C.  

[tkarey]

I am jumping into a conversation already in motion - always a tricky move, but the foolish plunge ahead

I'm skip reading through the posts in this category and have some thoughts on culpability. I'd like to give a woman's perspective in this overwhelmingly male chat room. Not that it's bad to be a guy, that isn't what I mean. There may be room, however, for a new hue on the rainbow of opinions given thus far. Trust me on the things I say..I know of what I speak.

Who's really, ultimately culpable? The serpent, the woman, the man? Well, no one got off scott free the first time so we likely won't either. In this way everyone has a very good point, regardless of their position. When I put myself in the place of Adam and Eve I become overwhelmed emotionally, spiritually, physically from imagining their lives, day in and day out after the fall. Their entire lives, their futures, their children's outlooks - everything had been changed and nothing had been spared. The only thing left to them was hope. They didn't even have the comfort of blaming others for they could easily remember their own part. If that had been me I don't think I would've held up very well. Can you imagine going from picking fruit off a tree (or whatever they ate before) while conversing with God to having to till the land in a hostile environment and NO MORE WALKS WITH GOD IN THE GARDEN?

Adam and Eve didn't have the Bible or years of sermons or wise, human parents or any of the "pluses" we have. They also didn't have the negatives - thousands of years of sin built up, evil surrounding us at every turn, etc, etc. They are as pure specimans as we will likely find. Yet, doggone it, they find themselves in the exact same position we find ourselves. So who do we blame? If we add 'inherant sin' into the mix, there is enough blame to go around.

And yet...it was the serpent who beguiled, who INITIATED the transgression. It was the serpent, too, who got the worst consequence of all. Adam and Eve's consequences were mixed with hope. Gardeners don't consider tilling the land a curse as I would, they can wax poetic at length about the joys of what was, originally, a consequence. Having babies is awesome - the main reason I'm glad to be a girl - but try telling me that when I'm in transition and I'm likely to say "shut up". You get the idea, I'm sorry to belabor the point - our consequences are mixed and they have the greater hope of a saviour. The serpent's consequence had NO hope involved. He needed to be crushed, end of story.

In the assembly story, then, GG bears the greatest weight of culpability. PLEASE NOTE: I'M NOT GOING TO INSULT THE DEVIL BY PUTTING GG ON HIS LEVEL...I'M JUST TAKING THE ANALOGY TO THE NEXT LOGICAL STEP (at least to me). Aslan tells Lucy that she will never know what would've happened if she'd made different choices. We won't either. It may have been worse, it may have been much, much better. At the end of the day we are still here, where we actually are.

I've made choices that are waaaay bad by virtually anyone's standards. I know the genesis of these choices, yet I"m the one who bears responsibility because I am the one who made them. I hate that. Others bear responsibility, too, I know that. I want to touch on Marcia's point - we WERE vulnerable. I'm not apologizing for that, none of us should IMO. Should we become hard as stone, guarding against being hurt again? It's one option but can't be the best one. It doesn't seem to fit into the "wise as serpents but innocent as doves" (?) I FORGOT THE VERSE!!! I'm kind of happy about that, in a weird way. I don't have the answers. If I did, God and I would be on speaking terms and we currently are not (at least from my end). I CAN'T apologize for the wounds inflicted on me that helped shape me into the woman who made these choices. Yet I must do something or I will continue to play out these wounds in my life, in my kids lives, over and over and over and over till the Lord returns.

I'm rambling....my point (!) from the female perspective is we are meant to be vulnerable. For instance...a woman (cover your ears if you don't like old-fashioned thinking) NEEDS, WANTS, PANTS FOR a man to love her. Nothing else matters in the way this does. If she does not receive appropriate affection from her dad, she will spend the rest of her life looking for it, usually in ways that end up hurting herself and others. The hope in that scenario is HEALING from the ultimate healer. So should she apologize for being made the way she is, with the needs she has??? NEVER, NEVER, NEVER, NEVER. So, you go David M. and whoever else is fuming mad. BE MAD, YOU SHOULD BE. You were taken advantage of. Your vulnerabilities were tapped, viciously used for someone else's pleasure. IT IS PAINFUL BEYOND MEASURE TO HAVE THAT HAPPEN TO A WOMAN, IT IS NO LESS PAINFUL, MAYBE MORE SO - I'M NOT OBJECTIVE HERE - TO HAVE IT HAPPEN SPIRITUALLY.

Hmmm...if there was a good ending to this I've forgotten as I've spent the last ten minutes listening to my daughter repeatedly sigh VERY LOUDLY while she waits to IM her friends.

OK, so my two cents worth.

Karey

[vernecarty]

...my point (!) from the female perspective is we are meant to be vulnerable.
Karey

I think I understand what you are driving at. Being in fellowship and thus being subject to spiritual leadership is by definition vulnerability. I really struggle with blaming the average saint who is understandably inclined to defer to appointed leaders.
From their perspective, why not err on the side of caution...?
It is the unique and divine calling of spiritual leaders, charged before almighty God and the holy angels, to see to it that such a saint, who in a response of obedience to God makes himself/herself subject, is not harmed spiritually or otherwise as a result of that decision. Failure to do so is to make God a liar....


 Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.

I wonder if anyone will ever truly understand why I am so often beside myself over this matter of spiritual leadership??
They stand in Christ's stead, to serve and protect...
I have not talked much about the unseen battle and how the visible manifestation of failure speaks so loudly of horrible compromise in the secret places...it still moves me to bitter tears...may the Lord forgive us....    
Verne
p.s Matthew 10:16 is probably the verse you forgot.

[al Hartman]

It is the unique and divine calling of spiritual leaders, charged before almighty God and the holy angels...

 Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.

I wonder if anyone will ever truly understand why I am so often beside myself over this matter of spiritual leadership??
They stand in Christ's stead, to serve and protect...

Remember those single-panel cartoon signs some years ago that said "Last month I couldn't even spell 'engineer'-- Now I are one!"?  Our son, with an excellent work history and a two-year AS degree with honors, interviewed with a large corporation and started work the following week as a "projects engineer."  He was the same guy he had been the week before-- the nameplate on his desk meant nothing.  It took a lot of personal drive on the job for him to learn and excel at his duties.

When I was a zealous young believer, two ministers I knew offered to sponsor me for ordination with their denomination.  I don't mean seminary-- I mean ordination, based upon my zeal I suppose, because I hadn't enough Bible knowledge to butter a piece of toast.  I was flattered, but deeply convicted that it would be a terribly wrong step for me to take, so I declined.

George invited me into the workers meeting the 2nd time it convened because I had asked him what it was all about after the frist time the workers met.  A week or two later he asked me into the LBs meeting, and shortly thereafter he announced my inclusion to the assy.  He was building something.

I did my best to adhere to the training I received, but I think we all recognize now that the training was askew.  Most of what I had learned prior to the formation of the assy had been erroneous and powerless form, lacking substance and power even while proclaiming to have both.  The assy was a much more intense version of the same.  I learned a lot during my assy years, but nothing that made me a stronger or better Christian.

George used to like the phrase, "Let's quit kidding the actors."  Well, that was me-- an actor, doing my best to "flesh-out" the role assigned to me with natural talent because what I was was all I had.  Calling me a worker and an LB hadn't changed anything about me, and nothing I was taught brought me any nearer to godliness.  The truth is, when I left the assy over a decade later, I was farther from knowing Christ in any practical sense than I had been before the assembly existed.

My point is that I and numerous others over the years understood nothing of the "charge before God and the holy angels" of which Verne speaks, nothing of "standing in Christ's stead to serve and protect," except George's version, which had a lot more to do with the "testimony" and George's opinions than with Christ.  Looking back, I think that through that time of my life "Christ" became, to me, just a word referring to a factor in the general scheme of "the testimony," & "the work."  I think that any per orchestration of theception of Jesus as a living entity was gradually lost to me during those dark years.

I offer this discussion as both a confession and an explanation of how things were from my perspective, but not to excuse any of my misdeeds, some of which are still coming to light...

I have not talked much about the unseen battle and how the visible manifestation of failure speaks so loudly of horrible compromise in the secret places...
Verne

Perhaps it's now time you do so...

Gratefully In Christ,
al

[tkarey]

Wow, thanks Verne. You said it very well.

Karey

[M2]

....
George invited me into the workers meeting the 2nd time it convened because I had asked him what it was all about after the frist time the workers met.  A week or two later he asked me into the LBs meeting, and shortly thereafter he announced my inclusion to the assy.  He was building something.

I did my best to adhere to the training I received, but I think we all recognize now that the training was askew.  Most of what I had learned prior to the formation of the assy had been erroneous and powerless form, lacking substance and power even while proclaiming to have both.  The assy was a much more intense version of the same.  I learned a lot during my assy years, but nothing that made me a stronger or better Christian.

George used to like the phrase, "Let's quit kidding the actors."  Well, that was me-- an actor, doing my best to "flesh-out" the role assigned to me with natural talent because what I was was all I had.  Calling me a worker and an LB hadn't changed anything about me, and nothing I was taught brought me any nearer to godliness.  The truth is, when I left the assy over a decade later, I was farther from knowing Christ in any practical sense than I had been before the assembly existed.

My point is that I and numerous others over the years understood nothing of the "charge before God and the holy angels" of which Verne speaks, nothing of "standing in Christ's stead to serve and protect," except George's version, which had a lot more to do with the "testimony" and George's opinions than with Christ.  Looking back, I think that through that time of my life "Christ" became, to me, just a word referring to a factor in the general scheme of "the testimony," & "the work."  I think that any per orchestration of theception of Jesus as a living entity was gradually lost to me during those dark years.

I offer this discussion as both a confession and an explanation of how things were from my perspective, but not to excuse any of my misdeeds, some of which are still coming to light...
...

Al,

You make a good observation.  This is the failure of the system that George built :
2Tim 3:5 holding to a form of godliness, although they have denied its power; and avoid such men as these.
....
2Tim 3:7 always learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

Since the focus was on keeping the assemblies going, preserving the testimony, Christ was not in the picture.  The only way to know "Christ in any practical sense" was to compromise one's commitment to the program, which then resulted in being labelled as being dominant for not submitting, or backsliding, or losing the vision, or ....
People like DavidM were victims of this system. And leaders like TomM, MarkC, SteveIrons who attempted to make that difference were pushed out and shunned.  I think Tom still has his rhinocerous skin as a souvenir .

I have discovered that in the less than 2 years since I have left, I have actually made "progress" re. long standing issues and dilemnas that were with me when I got saved.  I left 20+ years of "fellowship" with the same issues that I had going into "fellowship".  A number of others who have left since 2003 have made similar observations re. their own issues.

God bless,
Marcia

P.S.
MarkC  It's great to have you on board during the week.  Maybe it's time to quit the day job eh??
I like DavidM's difficult questions, I just disagree with you, Mark, re. David's attitude.  But we can agree to disgree on this one point.

Marcia

[outdeep]

To these comparisons of worse situations will be meaningless, because this BB is about the Assembly and dealing with what we experienced.  Having been on BB's where these other groups are mentioned (I even had an email exchange with the heir to David Koresh for a period of time) it is striking how similar some of the issues are that we talk about here.  It is the subtle powers in abuse that can be the most deadly! Yep, Assembly muy malo!

Yes, it may be meaningless in this sense:  you can't go up to someone who was beaten up by thugs and say, "good thing they didn't have knives".  This doesn't help the pain.

But, it is not meaningless in the context of my life where I an able see how God used "evil for good", enriched my life and kept me from worse things.  No one wants a major operation or a child to die of cancer.  But many can look back and see how God used it.  So, I don't think the thought is irrelevant.  I look back at the Assembly as my cancer operation and I am glad I wasn't in a group where the cancer was terminal.

I guess I am having a hard time buying into the black-and-white "Assembly bad" mentality because I don't know what it means.  Does it mean it was bad to join the Assembly (as Mark K uses it).  Well, OK I can buy into that.  There are other churches I wish I went to in my college years.  Does it mean the Assembly did unspeakably bad things (as Mark C uses it).  Well, I can buy into that.  There was spiritual abuse to all and focused abuse towards many in the inner circle.  Does it mean there were no positives, no working of God, no learning, no good ideals, no spiritual growth, no sincere leader?  Well, then I don't agree.  There was.

In my opinion, I think a much better saying would be:  "George bad".  In fact, I think the Assembly was rather good except for the many places George had a chokehold.  In fact, in the few places where you could get away from George's "big hand" of dominance and control, it was a great blessing.

[vernecarty]

Yes, it may be meaningless in this sense:  you can't go up to someone who was beaten up by thugs and say, "good thing they didn't have knives".  This doesn't help the pain.

But, it is not meaningless in the context of my life where I an able see how God used "evil for good", enriched my life and kept me from worse things.  No one wants a major operation or a child to die of cancer.  But many can look back and see how God used it.  So, I don't think the thought is irrelevant.  I look back at the Assembly as my cancer operation and I am glad I wasn't in a group where the cancer was terminal.

I guess I am having a hard time buying into the black-and-white "Assembly bad" mentality because I don't know what it means.  Does it mean it was bad to join the Assembly (as Mark K uses it).  Well, OK I can buy into that.  There are other churches I wish I went to in my college years.  Does it mean the Assembly did unspeakably bad things (as Mark C uses it).  Well, I can buy into that.  There was spiritual abuse to all and focused abuse towards many in the inner circle.  Does it mean there were no positives, no working of God, no learning, no good ideals, no spiritual growth, no sincere leader?  Well, then I don't agree.  There was.

In my opinion, I think a much better saying would be:  "George bad".  In fact, I think the Assembly was rather good except for the many places George had a chokehold.  In fact, in the few places where you could get away from George's "big hand" of dominance and control, it was a great blessing.

It is true that we have to look at all events in space-time through the lens of God's over-arching sovereignty.
It would be a grave mistake to let that perspective cripple one's faculty of discernment, and the ability to distinguish good and evil.
The children of Israel left the land of Egypt after four hundred and thirty years to the day ( after Jacob's arrival) of extended bondage. God's sovereign hand is evident in the nation's arrival, its sojourn and most certainly in its departure.
The only Israelites who argued that being in Egypt was a good thing (and by implication that they should return) were ones who failed to understand God's purpose and ultimately failed to enter into  it.
Can you imagine a delivered Israelite making the argument that Pharaoh was not so bad, that at first he at least did provide straw for the bricks, and Oh yes! The leeks and the onions were good were they not? The beatings did not get real serious until there was talk about leaving...etc. etc.
Some of you will immediately say to me - but Verne, some did do just that!  I know...

Please do not misunderstand me in this. God was still sovereign in the lives of His own who were in the assemblies and there were certainly many who did experience His faithfulness and spiritual growth while there.
How many of these do you think stayed...?!
The nation of Israrel grew from seventy souls to over six hundred thousand during the sojourn  in Egypt.

It was nevertheless a place of awful bondage - an iron furnace!

It makes me sad to think that we would be confused about the fact that the assemblies were, and always will be, despite whatever good God may have accomplished, a place of BONDAGE.
Verne

p.s the most astonishing thing to me in all of this is how little, if any at all, discussion there has been by those who should be most keen on this point, on the matter of God's purpose in allowing a man like Geftakys to do what he did.
We have been tinkering around the edges frankly...
The mark of mature Christianity is learning to recognize the purpose of God in EVERY circumstance.
Fail to do this, and the entire lesson will be completely lost on the participants...
p.p.s do any of you thnk that anyone in the asemblies rose to any position of responsibility without George's personal say-so?
My greatest joy in recollection of my time there was that I was nothing...how I thank my Heavenly Father for His preserving grace...Hallelujah!!