Surrounded by Republicans!!

[editor]

This very much depends on the particular district. Your comments would not be true about the North suburbs of Chicago where the pay is in fact remarkable. The way education is funded in the U.S will continue to ensure that inequities exist in many places.
Having said that, the evidence is not at all conclusive that money alone determines the quality of the product.
The recently published list of the top fifty shcools in Illiinois had several near the top who spent among the least (the top scoring school was indeed the biggest spender).
The futile hand-wringing about the effectiveness of teachers, to the exclusion of consideration of the fact that in so many places they are dealing with children in no way teachable is quite sad.
I place more responsibility on parents...
Verne

Good points Verne,

I am only familiar with California, and was commenting on such.  Clearly, the amount of money spent is not a guarantee of success.  If it were, we would be a nation of geniuses!

Where I am from, top teacher's pay is just over 50K per year.  This is for someone with a Masters, tenure, and summer school.  In my area, that salary couldn't afford a condominium, let alone a house.  In contrast, prision guards make 80 to 120K per year, and have similiar benefits.

I agree with you about the children being unteachable.  Why doesn't the teachers' union make an issue of this?

As a classroom volunteer, and with Suzie's involvement, I have concluded that our teachers are more dedicated, and have better equipment than ever before.  The kids, those who can speak English, are more challenging, but there is no way to discipline them now.  I vividly remember getting paddled in elementary school and even in junior high.  I would have never dreamed about talking back to a teacher, let alone the principle. 

Nowadays, however, kids will look at the teacher and say,  "#$%^ you!" knowing full well that not much can be done about it.  It isn't easy to expell a kid, unless he is caught with drugs, or gets into too many fights.  Being a disrespectful idiot is allowed and tolerated. 

Personally, I wouldn't care if half the school had to be expelled.  The quality of education and the whole tenor of the community would rise if teachers could teach to the level of the class, and weren't forced to teach to the lowest level.

Brent

[moonflower2]

Good points Verne,

Nowadays, however, kids will look at the teacher and say,  "#$%^ you!" knowing full well that not much can be done about it.  It isn't easy to expell a kid, unless he is caught with drugs, or gets into too many fights.  Being a disrespectful idiot is allowed and tolerated. 

Brent

You've got a problem here. I was an aide for a year in 7 & 8th special ed and BD. A student  would be suspended for calling the teacher a b****. There were definite limits on how far the disrespect could go, and how much you could disturb the class, no matter if it was LD or BD. They also knew the next step was the alternative learning school, which is one step short of juvy. (The kids in AL were frisked in the morning and had to earn  every priviledge, even recess. If need be, the student was there until they graduated from 12th grade.)

Well spelled-out rules for the high school district keeps that age group in line.  Some years, they had closed campus lunches - no one allowed off school campus, sometimes no one allowed outside (drinking beer in their cars.) If one lav became a pot hang-out, it was closed for a while.  Strict rules for membership on a sports team, etc. - one incident of drugs and they are off the team for the rest of the year.

There is a way to do it, but it has to be across the board and consistantly applied. This local public high school was limping along about 20 years ago, but learned from their mistakes.

[editor]

You've got a problem here. I was an aide for a year in 7 & 8th special ed and BD. A student  would be suspended for calling the teacher a b****. There were definite limits on how far the disrespect could go, and how much you could disturb the class, no matter if it was LD or BD. They also knew the next step was the alternative learning school, which is one step short of juvy. (The kids in AL were frisked in the morning and had to earn  every priviledge, even recess. If need be, the student was there until they graduated from 12th grade.)

Well spelled-out rules for the high school district keeps that age group in line.  Some years, they had closed campus lunches - no one allowed off school campus, sometimes no one allowed outside (drinking beer in their cars.) If one lav became a pot hang-out, it was closed for a while.  Strict rules for membership on a sports team, etc. - one incident of drugs and they are off the team for the rest of the year.

There is a way to do it, but it has to be across the board and consistantly applied. This local public high school was limping along about 20 years ago, but learned from their mistakes.

Here, it's open campus, kids drive away for lunch, etc.  Everyone knows where the pot hangout is.  There are rules for the team, but they have to get caught first.  It's hard to get expelled from elementary school, unless you are a "good" kid.  The "at risk" kids are the ones who get away with murder, and are excused because they are so "needy."  California's schools are not doing so well.

Brent

[vernecarty]

You've got a problem here. I was an aide for a year in 7 & 8th special ed and BD. A student  would be suspended for calling the teacher a b****. There were definite limits on how far the disrespect could go, and how much you could disturb the class, no matter if it was LD or BD. They also knew the next step was the alternative learning school, which is one step short of juvy. (The kids in AL were frisked in the morning and had to earn  every priviledge, even recess. If need be, the student was there until they graduated from 12th grade.)

Well spelled-out rules for the high school district keeps that age group in line.  Some years, they had closed campus lunches - no one allowed off school campus, sometimes no one allowed outside (drinking beer in their cars.) If one lav became a pot hang-out, it was closed for a while.  Strict rules for membership on a sports team, etc. - one incident of drugs and they are off the team for the rest of the year.

There is a way to do it, but it has to be across the board and consistantly applied. This local public high school was limping along about 20 years ago, but learned from their mistakes.

I am really flabbergasted at some of the things some teachers have to endure from their charges.
I suspect the swiftness and severity of discipline imposed for unacceptable conduct will certainly have a great impact on the atmosphere of a school, even for problematic kids.
I have had great trouble understanding the leniency philosphy as regards thuggish conduct on the part of students, who are after all, are supposedly there to learn.
It seems as if the trampling on the rights of diligent and well-behaved students to learn in a peacable atmosphere free from disruptions takes second place to accomodating disruptive and misbehaving students.
I know people wring their hands and plaintively ask what should be done with these type of students if not still attempt to educate them. I would argue that in some cases it is simply not possible and the cost of attmpting it is too high. The question then becomes of course how and when such a dertemination is to be made...
Verne

[moonflower2]

I am really flabbergasted at some of the things some teachers have to endure from their charges.
I suspect the swiftness and severity of discipline imposed for unacceptable conduct will certainly have a great impact on the atmosphere of a school, even for problematic kids.
I have had great trouble understanding the leniency philosphy as regards thuggish conduct on the part of students, who are after all, are supposedly there to learn.
It seems as if the trampling on the rights of diligent and well-behaved students to learn in a peacable atmosphere free from disruptions takes second place to accomodating disruptive and misbehaving students.
I know people wring their hands and plaintively ask what should be done with these type of students if not still attempt to educate them. I would argue that in some cases it is simply not possible and the cost of attmpting it is too high. The question then becomes of course how and when such a dertemination is to be made...
Verne

From what I saw during that single year, the homelife is what determined the behavior of the students. Some of the other factors were whether the school got the support of the parent(s), whether the principal supported the teachers, and whether the teacher wanted to be "liked" by the students, or was there to do a job.

I still think it's a rare case that a student would not be teachable. Aside from the ESL students, many of them have serious problems at home. They can't sit in a classroom and concentrate. Their problems are too overwhelming. They bring the reality of home to school with them and can't interact normally with other students in a regular classroom. BD students are very intelligent kids, but they can't all learn in the same way. What they experience at home, and behavior they consider to be normal, is not consistent with the average classroom.

LD kids need more time to learn. Many of them have a gift of artistry, but it takes them far longer to learn Math, or remember what they just read. They aren't unteachable.

If kids aren't given the option for schooling directed toward their particular needs, you may as well enlarge juvy and and construct a moving sidewalk to their front door from each school.

We may as well fund the extra money for them at a younger age, rather than pay for their incarceration at a later date.

I just hope we don't have to go back to the way it was when I grew up. The fast learners were bored to death, the slow learners were pegged as "dumb" and "bad", and the BD's were given no options at all, and were considered to be the "lost" of society. No hope for them at all. They were usually humiliated in front of the entire class, referred to as a "lump in a bowl of gravy", etc., etc., and eventually expelled, ripe for even worse treatment by the folks. Black sheep, scapegoats.......every school district should have an alternative learning school, and I thought more of them did.

[David Mauldin]

Brent,  You bring up some good issues that I will try and follow up on.  One big drain on the $ is special ed. Think about the power private schools have when it comes to problem students.  Ginger Geftakys had the liberty (And took it) to refuse services.  If a student pissed her off one time too many "Get out!"  On the other hand public education cannot refuse anyone! Anyone!!!  My first year teaching was a nightmares nightmare!  I was given a student who had major psychological problems, he was abused, he was a  drug baby. He was "oppositionaly deffiant" (he would always be against any authority figure no matter what you did.) He had ringworm!
He had pre-K reading skills.  He had a three minute attention span.  Yet  he was in my 4th grade classroom!??  I was never given any help other than bs from the administration. Later I learned that the school district was trying to delay the inevitable.  This was getting him into a school that would provide him with what he needed, One-on-One assistance. He finally reached this level of care but not until 6th grade. This cost the district $35 grand+  (4 times the cost of a regular student) Special services are a (Fair Hearing) given for any parent who demands it!   If a school speech therapist says that "Your child doesn't qualify!" the parents can still sue and the district has to pay for the parents lawers! I have heard over and over that this is where the major amount of money is being spent.

[sfortescue]

Since it's considered unconstitutional for public schools to teach children the values of Christian parents, it logically follows that it is unconstitutional for the government to be involved with education at all.  For all practical purposes, separation of church and state must also mean the separation of education and state.

[editor]

Brent,  You bring up some good issues that I will try and follow up on.  One big drain on the $ is special ed. Think about the power private schools have when it comes to problem students.  Ginger Geftakys had the liberty (And took it) to refuse services.  If a student pissed her off one time too many "Get out!"  On the other hand public education cannot refuse anyone! Anyone!!!  My first year teaching was a nightmares nightmare!  I was given a student who had major psychological problems, he was abused, he was a  drug baby. He was "oppositionaly deffiant" (he would always be against any authority figure no matter what you did.) He had ringworm!
He had pre-K reading skills.  He had a three minute attention span.  Yet  he was in my 4th grade classroom!??  I was never given any help other than bs from the administration. Later I learned that the school district was trying to delay the inevitable.  This was getting him into a school that would provide him with what he needed, One-on-One assistance. He finally reached this level of care but not until 6th grade. This cost the district $35 grand+  (4 times the cost of a regular student) Special services are a (Fair Hearing) given for any parent who demands it!   If a school speech therapist says that "Your child doesn't qualify!" the parents can still sue and the district has to pay for the parents lawers! I have heard over and over that this is where the major amount of money is being spent.

Yes, I think you've got it.

This type of thing is ruining school for more than it is worth.  It's just ONE area where things are mismanaged.

Another is the MILLIONS spent by the supervisors to take junkets in order to attend talks and view 'new' curruculae.  Please tell me why we need to buy new mathbooks every year?  They just throw the old ones away.

The district has a few lame computers, and they paid far more for them than what I could order them for from Dell. 

I could go on and on.

Brent

[moonflower2]

Ridiculous curriculum changes aside, there are students who are going to take up a portion of the budget.

I worked one-on-one as an aide with one student who was on his way out. He had just been transferred to the LD class. He needed me just to keep his attention on what was going on in the class. He had been sexually abused by his dad for 5 years, mom was a druggie and grandma and grandpa were raising him with Christian priniciples. (this was a public school)

He showed me the verses his grandma would write for him each day and the shoes grandma would buy for him.

He read at a 3rd grade level, had a gift for poetry and wanted to be a rapper.

We did what we could, but because of the way he had been treated at home, he had become paranoid and was expelled after calling the teacher a bitch and carrying a knife (to protect himself against kids who were "jealous" of him)

Kids like that are going to buck the rules and it takes a different mind-set if they are to be educated at all. In my opinion, it's going to be an aide's job, because teachers can't give enough individualized attention. The kids NEED counselling, and an aide who doesn't demand 24/7 "acceptable" language. He tried f*** you one day (behind the held-up book) but it didn't get the reaction he wanted from me, so he dropped it.

He was sent to the alternative learning school. It was the only option at that point.

If I were younger and had more energy, those are the kids I'd be working with. Aides are also very underpaid.....

[just me]

Since I am working on my Masters in Special Education, I feel somewhat passionate about the topic at hand.  Especially when you start blaming special ed kids for the problems at public schools.

Dave, the IDEA laws are changing.  Parents are no longer reimbursed for legal fees.  Kids don't quallify for special services unless they function 2 standard deviations below their functional IQ unless their IQ is below 70 (I think).  So if you have an IQ of 72 and function like someone with an IQ of 72, you don't get special services.  If you are 10 and have speech problems but your IQ labels you at the level of a 3 year old and you talk like a 3 year old, you don't get speech services.

The biggest problem (as I see it) is all of the behavior and learning problems.  Like Moon was talking about.  Except in California we don't fund for individual aides.  So that means classroom teachers have to deal with these kids with some pull out help.  But you know what?  I think mixing these kids with the "regular" kids is what a compassionate, "christian" society is all about.  10% of the American population has a disability.  So should we hide it or learn to tolerate and adapt to it?  Disabilities like Autism and Aspergers are on the rise.  These are our future neighbors, possibly employees, and hopefully friends of our children.  They deserve access to a public school education as well.  We just need to revamp what schools are to fit the diversity of our population (including huge ESL populations, and the gifted who are also underserved).  Hey it's a great challenge and the reason I'm in education.  It's definately not just a job.  And I don't do it to get summers off, 'cuz special ed teachers don't.

The problems are numerous, as you all have mentioned, and it's not just the fault of special ed.

my opinion
me

[David Mauldin]

Just Me.  I just want to clarify that I am not blaming the kids.  I think education is the key for our country as a whole. (Invest money now and save it later!)   My first year teaching was a "baseball-bat-over-the-head-hello"  I originally went into teaching so I could teach at "Cornerstone"  After a month teaching at Gilbert I can remember walking on campus one morning and seeing all these kids in line for their free breakfast (90%) and feeling a tremendous disdain for these 'ungrateful little brats!'.  Today it is much different. After a while you can't blame the kids. You begin to love them and see them as your own children. After a while you begin to realize that college education for 100% of these kids is not the goal here!  It is the stated ideal but in order for that to happen it would take so much more!!!!   Why because in order to get these kids to pass the state standards you must carry them across!  You get kids who come into your classroom with no motivation to even half-way try. So you have to beg them, try and contact parents, get them to stay after school 4 days a week just so you can get them to do their homework. Last year I did the "Franklin Planner" with my 6th graders!  I wrote out a 20 year plan for each kid.  For most kids it was a joke. They would say things like "Football Player"  "S.W.A.T" and so on. I took their picture in a cap and gown with a degree in their hand 2020 Phd in Paleontology etc... O.k. I'm just rambeling here but you can see what I  am saying.

[David Mauldin]

GOOD NEWS Arnold has backed down from his "pension reform" !!!!!
http://www.latimes.com/

[summer007]

Matt, Just a comment to your post from 4/3. Anyone who spent 15+ years in the Assm could come across as sounding Shrill. Summer.l

[David Mauldin]

The school district I work for has just settled our contract!!!  We were at negotiations for the past 3 years!!!!!   We fought tooth and nail! We were working "Contract" which means no volunteering or extras!   We were able to keep our health care benefits!!! While negotiating we were called some pretty nasty names by someone on our board!!! But it is true!!!  You really can fight city hall!!!!  Now we can focus more on our beloved governor!

[matthew r. sciaini]

Summer:

A comment to your most recent post:

Other people on this board were involved with the assembly for 15+ years (including myself) and are able to discuss things without being loud and obnoxious.  (shrill)

Your statement doesn't wash.

Matt