Family Quandry

[night owl]

Oh yeah, and ANOTHER thing - I've already spent (approximately) 25 years wondering whether he would ever leave, without any encouragement. (He has lightened up slightly over the years tho', I must say.) And now within the past week I learn that the original Assembly leadership has fallen?? God is doing a work, and He (ultimately) finishes what He starts. I don't know how that all pans out for my brother, but I am reminded of the miraculous changes that took place inside the Worldwide Church of God.

[M2]

Actually I don't think you have gone off-topic - you have answered at least one question I was going to ask. And that is: What is it about the Assembly that people find so attractive? The tendency for me at first when my brother joined was, "Where did I go wrong? How did I fail him?" As if I had that much control over him. I think at least one thing he was looking for was a family. Not that he didn't come from a good family, but definitely one that didn't take him seriously enough. And if there's one thing I can tell here from reading everybody's posts, you were (and continue to be) a community. And I think my brother was craving something like that.

We should have addressed each other as 'Comrade' rather than 'Brother/Sister' eh??

Another thing I think he found attractive is that he tends to be lazy, and for the first time he was being given limits and motivation and (albeit extreme) boundaries. I think he really grativated towards that, too. Plus the fact that he thought he had found a Book of Acts kind of church - returning to the basics, the early church. From time to time he would express concerns over things people said or did, but he was willing to give all of that up to be a part of what was happening.

Herein lies the deception of the "Book of Acts kind of church - returning to the basics, the early church".  The Book of Acts church had 3000 souls added in one day (Acts 2:41), and Acts 5:14 ... multitudes of men and women, were constantly added to their number;.  We never saw this kind of growth in the assemblies.

And thanks Al for your concern - I totally understand and appreciate it. My hope is in Christ, not in my brother's emancipation - and He knows what's best for my brother. So I won't lose hope in the One who gives me hope! And my brother is definitely worth all of the prayer and heartache. You guys are awesome! And we serve an awesome God.

And another thing - I find it particularly interesting that you mention Jonestown and David Koresh. When I first tried researching the Assembly, one of the people I talked to who worked for a ministry whose focus was educating people on cults and aberrant churches, he mentioned that the Assembly, while doctrinally sound, had all the potential for becoming a Jonestown. So I was hearing it even back then. Actually, practically everyone I talked to in my research days began by saying they thought the Assembly was doctrinally sound, but aberrational and cult-like.

Out of the mouth of non-assemblyites.  At least no assemblyite can call you a disgruntled ex-assemblyite for calling their "precious" a cult.

Marcia

[summer007]

Just a comment on what makes it so attractive: You've go to remember alot of the attendee's started as young kids off of college campus. For instance my friend met them on campus, she invited me to a Bible Study I had just been Baptized at a well known church. (age 19) What happens is very subtle, you go, then someone there "goes out to you" taking you under their wing so to speak, they invite you to dinner,no big deal, then later on its for Sunday worship. You know nothing about pre-prayer, or head-coverings til your in the thick of it, if you don't wear the head-covering your seen as rebellious, or un-submitted what-ever, as weird as it is, your under no pressure at all in the beginning. Then you start participating like getting into the word and doing a chapter summery, great feels good to share, then at a prayer meeting you have some requests, and so, on. You meet others who see how the Lord is speaking to you, working in your lfe, your encouraged not to sell-out or compromise your walk. Plus then almost everyone is asking how your walk with the Lord is and Are you rejoicing? Iys all very manipulative.  I wanted to leave my first Sunday meeting I'd commuted with a sister she never told me about the long day. I said I'd wait in the park, where we had lunch, she persuaded me to stay that afternoon because GG was in the book of Daniel and she reminded me how much I liked prophecy. Also a few months later I went to the LB in charge of my area and told him I was leaving,( my friend and I had found a cult article in the newspaper that was errily similar to the Assm) and he talked me into staying with words like Well is'nt this where God led you and hang-on new workers are arriving soon. Also GG was quite the Talker, he had stories, illustrations etc. Well you did say you visited so you know. So its easier to woe younger naive kids in their late teens early twentys this has ben the M.O. from the beginning.

[M2]

Just a comment on what makes it so attractive: You've go to remember alot of the attendee's started as young kids off of college campus. For instance my friend met them on campus, she invited me to a Bible Study I had just been Baptized at a well known church. (age 19) What happens is very subtle, you go, then someone there "goes out to you" taking you under their wing so to speak, they invite you to dinner,no big deal, then later on its for Sunday worship. You know nothing about pre-prayer, or head-coverings til your in the thick of it, if you don't wear the head-covering your seen as rebellious, or un-submitted what-ever, as weird as it is, your under no pressure at all in the beginning. Then you start participating like getting into the word and doing a chapter summery, great feels good to share, then at a prayer meeting you have some requests, and so, on. You meet others who see how the Lord is speaking to you, working in your lfe, your encouraged not to sell-out or compromise your walk. Plus then almost everyone is asking how your walk with the Lord is and Are you rejoicing? Iys all very manipulative.  I wanted to leave my first Sunday meeting I'd commuted with a sister she never told me about the long day. I said I'd wait in the park, where we had lunch, she persuaded me to stay that afternoon because GG was in the book of Daniel and she reminded me how much I liked prophecy. Also a few months later I went to the LB in charge of my area and told him I was leaving,( my friend and I had found a cult article in the newspaper that was errily similar to the Assm) and he talked me into staying with words like Well is'nt this where God led you and hang-on new workers are arriving soon. Also GG was quite the Talker, he had stories, illustrations etc. Well you did say you visited so you know. So its easier to woe younger naive kids in their late teens early twentys this has ben the M.O. from the beginning.

Are you from the Ottawa assembly, summer ??

Great to have you back on board.

God bless,
Marcia

[summer007]

Thanks Marcia. I'm not from Ottawa. I'm an LA Woman first and last. Summer.

[summer007]

Just to add a person needs to take full-responsibility for their involvement, although I felt talked into staying no-one made me stay. I had questions for a while and I felt if I asked them, I already knew what the answers would be. When things became truly alarming in a sisters house I raised questions, and was immediatly on the outs, eventually I moved into my own place. Once moved into a bro/ or sis house your really on a treadmill llifestyle work, meetings, meals, and meetings, no t.v. allowed. But in the down time I could really think and read lots of books, and observe what was going on, this knawing feeling that something just is'nt right, was always there. I will pray your Brother wakes-up, Several on board were involved for 20+ years and they managed to leave.  summer.

[vernecarty]

Just a comment on what makes it so attractive: You've go to remember alot of the attendee's started as young kids off of college campus. For instance my friend met them on campus, she invited me to a Bible Study I had just been Baptized at a well known church. (age 19) What happens is very subtle, you go, then someone there "goes out to you" taking you under their wing so to speak, they invite you to dinner,no big deal, then later on its for Sunday worship. You know nothing about pre-prayer, or head-coverings til your in the thick of it, if you don't wear the head-covering your seen as rebellious, or un-submitted what-ever, as weird as it is, your under no pressure at all in the beginning. Then you start participating like getting into the word and doing a chapter summery, great feels good to share, then at a prayer meeting you have some requests, and so, on. You meet others who see how the Lord is speaking to you, working in your lfe, your encouraged not to sell-out or compromise your walk. Plus then almost everyone is asking how your walk with the Lord is and Are you rejoicing? Iys all very manipulative.  I wanted to leave my first Sunday meeting I'd commuted with a sister she never told me about the long day. I said I'd wait in the park, where we had lunch, she persuaded me to stay that afternoon because GG was in the book of Daniel and she reminded me how much I liked prophecy. Also a few months later I went to the LB in charge of my area and told him I was leaving,( my friend and I had found a cult article in the newspaper that was errily similar to the Assm) and he talked me into staying with words like Well is'nt this where God led you and hang-on new workers are arriving soon. Also GG was quite the Talker, he had stories, illustrations etc. Well you did say you visited so you know. So its easier to woe younger naive kids in their late teens early twentys this has ben the M.O. from the beginning.

I imagine many who got involved with this scheme to entrap others were sincere and meant well.
Nonetheless, it was a well-crafted system for recruitment of the unwary. Based on what we now know about George Geftakys, any one still trying to make the case that he was ever anything other than a con man and a charlatan needs to have their head examined. This is a painful reality. There are still some folk who think that at some point George was really serving God and I have heard some say that he even helped them with their Christian walk.
Those who want to believe such a thing are certainly welcome to their opinion.
My opinion is that a true shepherd of God does not undergo this sort of metamorphosis, Kafka's fancy tale notwithstanding.
George Geftakys was always a cockroach. We just were not discerning enough to tell it. Sadly many were, but choose to remain silent and so the rest of us had to pay the price for their betrayal.
Verne

[night owl]

Thanks to everyone and their extremely helpful comments! Brent, thanks for all of your down-to-earth posts.

P.S. I seem to have rated a post on SWTE.

[editor]

Thanks to everyone and their extremely helpful comments! Brent, thanks for all of your down-to-earth posts.

P.S. I seem to have rated a post on SWTE.

Congratulations!

On another note, is your brother currently in an Assembly that receives George, or one of the others?

There is a big difference, and although I don't recommend either as a place to grow, certainly the former is much, much worse than the latter.

I don't think that there is any worry about the groups that have ex-communicated George are going to get Waco...but it's another matter altogether for the others.

Brent

[vernecarty]

P.S. I seem to have rated a post on SWTE.

What's that? 
Verne

p.s. I just can't resist. Let's see...let me guess - all those bitter, hate-filled, whining cry-babies over on AB rather than telling you how you ought to unconditionally forgive and forget everything vile and vicious that was ever done against you, to simply grow up and take responsibility for not preventig yourself from being spiritually raped by men calling themselves shepherds, to simply move on with your life and continue to honor the Lord's servant for we are all really his spiritual children and we have so much to thank him for...etc. etc. etc... are encouraging you not to love but to be vindictive, bitter and spiteful...am I close? 
Verne

[summer007]

Verne, Take a step further on the fringes/edges of the cliff, and imagine your girls fresh into college telling you about the "studies in the new testament" they've been attending, and sister's houses, you get the picture. Time to switch to de-cafe I would think. Summer. p.s. I really liked your look at I cor 9 and the running out-side of the track.

[vernecarty]

Verne, Take a step further on the fringes/edges of the cliff, and imagine your girls fresh into college telling you about the "studies in the new testament" they've been attending, and sister's houses, you get the picture. Time to switch to de-cafe I would think. Summer. p.s. I really liked your look at I cor 9 and the running out-side of the track.

My girls are a real tender spot. I once told my wife the only time she would have to visit me in jail is if anyone put thier grubby hands on either one of them... 
Having said that, my goal is by the time they are college age, we would have taught them well enough to spot a cretin like Geftakys and people like him, a mile distant...
Verne

[night owl]

That's the biggest way I failed him. I was nowhere near discerning enough. It's like I saw, but I didn't see.

[editor]

That's the biggest way I failed him. I was nowhere near discerning enough. It's like I saw, but I didn't see.

It is really hard to understand and discern these things for people who have never experienced them.  For the typical new convert, the first few months actually seem positive.  They are taught to be on time, usually give up drinking and other moral failings, and for many it is the first time they have family and friends.  The closeness of the community is really nice....at first.

All of this looks good to an observer...at first.

You just don't expect a man who carries around a really nice bible, who is always praying, counseling, preaching and travelling to minister the "Heavenly Vision" to be a pervert.  It's tough to realize that today, he is wearing a suit and preaching something he plagiarized from a real pastor, but last night he was engaging in kinky anal sex with a woman who he isn't married to.  It's hard to see that coming.

The vast majority of members, once they were slapped awake and had cold water poured on them, did the right thing and got out of dodge and sent George packing. 

However, the current bunch who still follows him are in real trouble.  I honestly believe that they could eyewitness George or one of their leaders committ a horrible crime and then deny it ever happened.  They are totally blinded and have completely defiled, non-functional consciences.  Night Owl, the man you spoke with who told you that it had all the makings of JonesTown was right on the money.

Brent

[summer007]

Verne, I have No Dought that you will adequetly warn them. My Daughter will most-likely bump into them in the fall, and it will be over my dead body she will get involved with them. I would go in and pull her out of the group,were she to meet up with them. Remember they're just Christians going out witnessing for the Lord, etc. (very subtle)  Summer.