WELFARE MYTHS

[Eulaha L. Long]

There seems to be a lot of negativity regarding welfare receipients on our bulletin board.  I post this email address to bring to light some of the myths that surround a "typical welfare case".  I also hope that we can start some sort of fruitful discussion as a result.

http://www.wroc.org/mythfact.htm

[lenore]

APRIL 30

Is there a difference between welfare in the states than welfare in Canada.

Do they have workfare?

What are some of those myths on that web site than is really a myth?

Ontario Works , which is the province of Ontario Welfare, is no myth and no joke?

If you do not obey their rules of compliance, your support of any financial survival is cut off.
You are not allow to own life insurance, or save for your child's education. They would rather se you in permanent debt that aid you out of the system.

What about the job market in some areas? In areas where the type of jobs and the hours available doesnt allow you to get beyond the less than survival financially..

In Ontario. anywhere in Ontario.  A single person is only entitled to $535 per month to live on.
If you rent exceeds that ...no other money is available.

There can be social housing rent, plus cost of heating your home with gas, then hydro, and then cost of water, plus social housing lease requires that you have liability fire insurance, plus your phone, and groceries, and equipement to upkeep your home.

There are people who drink and smoke there support away, in lieu of feeding their children.
But that percentage of people is around 10 %.

There are jobs out there, but usually part time minimum wage jobs, and if you are a single person, you are only able to make about $100 before Ontario Works takes off dollar per dollar off your welfare support cheque.
It is not just the financial support, Ontario Works there is a drug card, that helps pays for prescriptions for people who have an illness to keep going day by day.
But if you get beyond the $535 dollar limit, the drug benefit is cut off. And if you only make about $600 per month, and the cost of medication is too great, what goes, the medication, then the ability to work, and the vicious cycle starts all over again.

Before any one says welfare people are bums, and lazy.  Maybe the system needs to be taken a look at, to see how trapped people become in the endless cycle of poverty that is near impossible to escape from. The older the person gets, the more unlikely that escape from
system becomes nil.

This is just one province of Canada that doesnt this. There are 9 other provinces and 3 territories that have different rules.

I dont know how this compares to the 50 separate states .

Lenore

[editor]

In San Luis Obispo county, most of the people who are arrested for selling meth, or pot are also on welfare.

I think they do it because they want extra money and don't want to work for it.  Plus they get high as a job related perk. 

Kids? No worries mon.  Breakfast, lunch, tutors, special healthcare...all provided!   

I don't care who thinks I'm insenstive, or any other notion when I say this:

The idea of welfare is immoral.  I hate it.  I resent people who are on welfare, and I don't think they should be allowed to vote as long as they are mooching off of productive citizens.

Personal charity, where I help out someone of my own freewill is the kind of "welfare" I support.  If a man won't work, he can go hungry.  (I think I heard this somewhere once.)

Welfare has done nothing more than purchase a permanent underclass and enslave them.  That's cruel and sick.  It's even worse when I am forced to pay for it. 

I repeat, I hate welfare, and I resent those who are on it. 

I am owed money by a handful of people and I suspect that all of them are on welfare.  They promised to pay me back....but I knew at the time they never would.  Welfare types don't usually deliver, unless they are delivering babies or drugs.  Statistics back up what I'm saying.  (notice I said usually, not never.....)

Brent

[editor]

April 30:

Then Brent: You recent me.

Lenore

Well,

do you have a job?  What have you done to try to escape welfare life?  Do you have a medical disability?

My mom and dad divorced when I was young, and my mom worked.  She got a small amount of help from my dad, but not near enough to allow her to stay home, so she worked hard.  (she didn't have any more kids, since she wasn't married)

We were never on welfare, and didn't know anyone on welfare, but we were poor for a while.

I know there are a few hard luck cases on welfare, but on the whole that's not the case. 

I have a tremendous amount of respect for Mexican illegals.  They come over here and work hard, as well as sponge off the system.  That's one better than just mooching and not working.  When we bought our last car, a Mexican family was there, mom, dad, five kids....and they paid cash for a diesel pickup.  It was obvious that these people worked for a living.  I was impressed.

On the other hand, I have patients who are on welfare, who pay for their children with medical, get food stamps and housing, and even education all paid for. (they also have cable TV, and smoke cigarrettes at 3 bucks a pack.)

They have a lawsuit against the one employer they had in the last 5 years, and are trying to get someone to make them disabled so they can get on Social Security.  I'm not talking about one or two people, but several, AND ITS A PATTERN.

The number one employer in our county is the government.  I know a dozen or so people who work in social services, (christians) and they assure me that the vast majority of people on wefare in this county are:

lazy
overweight
substance abusers
immoral (lots of different dads for their bastard children)
liars
totally ungrateful
murderer (several tax-payor purchased abortions)

I repeat, I hate welfare, and i resent the people who are on it.

Sorry Lenore, that's how it looks on my side of the fence.

If your story is different, I'd love to be put in my place.

Brent

[editor]

The job market here in Arnprior is limited. There is only part time work or contact work available.
The employer around here, the factories which is the only possibilities for full time employement, at a decent pay, is almost none existent.

My job right now is to do what I can to recover as much as I can.
Which is trips to the psychriatist, support groups , programs at the Community Mental Health Center which I frequently am there.
I take workshops as the opportunity arrive.

I do not sit at home, doing nothing. As my post on Daily Chatting will verify.
I am busy.
As for my weight, I was 300 pounds prior to Christmas , I am 285, I walk all over town several times a week. I am taking Yoga, and I go to the gym, and go to the pool to swim, SO I am becoming fit despite of my weight.

I am involved in my church, volunteering my time.

I dont drive, so getting to the city to look for work , takes planning, I dont speak French.

I can type, I am a trained typist I worked in the government prior to my divorced.
I worked in an ANimal  Hospital, I worked at McDonald's, and I worked at a drug Store.

I volunteers at my kids school, I worked at the local cable tv station, I volunteers at my daughtes girl guides organization,
I worked clean up a elderly person room, at a local retirement center.

SO do I follow the sterotyping that you have of welfare receipients.
Because we all do not fit the mold.

Ok Lenore, 

read carefully, please

My wife does alot of that stuff, gym, school volunteer, etc.  She can do all of this because she doesn't have to work and has time. 

You on the other hand do not have time to do all that stuff.  You need to work.  If you can do Yoga, you can make pizza, which brings me to my next point.

I will put you up in an apartment, here in Atascadero CA.  I will also get you a job working for Dominoes Pizza.  As soon as you can drive you can make well over twenty dollars an hour, which would be enough to pay for the apartment, etc. If you can't drive, but are willing to work hard and learn, you can make good money as a manager.  Also, you could work at WalMart, Kohls, Target any number of places....if you really want to. Your kids can find work around here too, perhaps in the same areas.

You won't have time for self-esteem courses, Long posts on the BB, cable TV or support groups, because you will have to work.  If it doesn't work out,  I'll pay for you to fly back to Ontario.  You can get your medication and stuff here too, I believe, but you will have to look into that.  You most certainly could get foodstamps to help you out initially, but free pizza and salads is also helpful. 

You must get yourself out here, and if you are serious, Ill have an apartment ready for you to move in to, as well as the job.  Just give me some notice.  Again, if it doesn't work, I'll pay for you to get back to Ontario. 

I bet that there might even be a few other people on the BB who would pitch in to help you, but it is totally up to them.

What do you say?

Brent

[editor]

What about the work visa? What about my citizenship? How can I get a job without a green card? I am Canadian remember?

You'd have to check into that, but again, a job would be here waiting for you.  The owner of several of the local dominoes is one of my best friends and a poker buddy.

I also can get you a nice house, not just an apartment.  I made a call to someone I know who wants to rent to a Christian family.  I'll take care of it.

What about my age? What about my weight? What about the language I dont speak Spanish?

If your parents are in their late seventies, you are probably about the same age as me.  I work.  My friend, who owns the place is 46.  He works too.  I know people who are overweight who work, you wouldn't be the only one.  English is spoken here.

My girls will have to go in to debt to receive a college education, the welfare system do not pay for that here.

I paid for my own college.  I thought it would be a good investment in my future.  I had to take out loans, get grants and scholarships...and I even worked for money.  It was quite a gamble, but it paid off.

I'm not going to overcome any barriers for you.  I'll just provide a job and a nice house.  That ain't bad.

If you think it's too risky, or that your support groups and bowling and yoga and time spent chatting with ladies in the cafeteria or Sunday school lesson planning, and WELFARE is a better deal, then you should stay put.

Welfare is giving you a bunch stuff that I won't give you.  I won't subsidize your bowling, or pay for a support group.  Just a house and a job.  I'm just a private citizen!

I'll just say this.  If you didn't waste so much time going to support groups, planning sunday school lessons, having breakfast and lunch and doing yoga, you could work.

If you can't find a job there, you should move to a place where you can find a job.

Brent

[Suzie Tr0ckman]

Have to respond........................

You do have a few roadblocks, however from reading your post on Daily Chatting, I think your biggest obstacle is TIME.  If you are serious about getting a job and cutting expenses I see some major things that need to go:

pets,internet,computer,gym,luncheons,volunteer work,support groups,Sunday school prep, and 2 hour devotions, cooking classes, breakfasts, spare time for reading.....and "sleeping most of the day at home"from April 25th "DailyChat"

Keep the bowling if it works into lunch hours or eves.

BTW, When do you have time to look for work?

I am convinced that a majority of  people would consider all the above as secondary "luxuries" and not needs.  I RESENT the fact that "welfare" supports this lifestyle.

As you probably know, I rarerly, if ever post on this BB.  Today I decided to post as Brent's offer effected me.  I personally don't have the time and I don't have an outside job. I don't understand why he tortures himself by posting here.

Suzie Tr0ckman

I just read your "Daily Chatting" from april 25th, and you mention that your support/self esteem group is called,  "A Time for Me."

It seems to me that all of your time is spent on you, and that may be why you don't have a job.  You should find another support group with a different name, like "A Time to Work."

People, read her daily chats if you think I'm exaggerating!

[lenore]

Thanks but no thanks.

I dont think I will get the support I will require?


This is also  a good by to a place where I know longer feel the support or encouragment.

Only condemnation and scorn.


GOOD BYE. IT WAS FUN FOR A SEASON.

I hope God will not be too harsh with your attitude at my expense.

[vernecarty]

Thanks but no thanks.

I dont think I will get the support I will require?


This is also  a good by to a place where I know longer feel the support or encouragment.

Only condemnation and scorn.


GOOD BYE. IT WAS FUN FOR A SEASON.

I hope God will not be too harsh with your attitude at my expense.

Hi Lenore:

I am sorry you have interpreted the exchange as being condemnatory and scornful.
I honestly do not believe that is Brent's intention. The easiest thing for him to do would have been to say nothing and just ignore you. While his suggestions may not be practicable for the place you are at currently, please don't allow your sense of injured dignity to not prompt at least some reflection on your part. You may not agree, but is is always good to hear another perspective don't you think?
 I believe the BB as a community wants to support and encourage you in whatever way we can and I think for the most part has done that. You are not really a member of this community until at least one person has really gotten under your skin. Welcome!
Verne

[editor]

Thanks but no thanks.

I dont think I will get the support I will require?


This is also  a good by to a place where I know longer feel the support or encouragment.

Only condemnation and scorn.


GOOD BYE. IT WAS FUN FOR A SEASON.

I hope God will not be too harsh with your attitude at my expense.

I meant every word I said, especially the part about the job and the house.  I was even prepared to help her get her drivers license, if she ever made it out here.  Canadians come here all the time, and if she had a job she could get a green card pretty easy.  (she probably could have worked without the card...but that's another matter entirely.)  There would have been no strings attached, and I would have given her a return ticket on her arrival.  I am also quite confident that she would have found all kinds of support from believers here.

My thinking was that if I was going to go off on how much I hate welfare, I should at least back up my words with action.  I think a job and a house is pretty good deal, certainly much better than what welfare is offering.  I meant every word, and my wife almost passed out when I explained it to her.

However, as much as I wanted to help Lenore in doing this, I was 99.9% sure she wouldn't do it.  Like most welfare types, she is dependent and powerless, thanks to welfare and too many people coddling her and telling her it's OK.  It isn't.  Again, if she can do cooking classes, bowling, yoga and 30 minute walks, she can make pizza!  (My friend has hired many down-on-their-luck types and some of them have done really well.  Most of them simply end up getting caught stealing, however.  I didn't have this concern with Lenore.)

Some people on this forum like to gush about love and fellowship. I'm all for it, but action speaks louder than words.  I've been agonizing over Lenore's state for some months, and never responded to one of her posts, ever, until she said I was like Hitler, after she totally misread me.  Lenore needed about 99 times less god-talk and 100 times more, "walk the talk" encouragement.

I would read about one of her weeks on "Daily Chatting," and would sit in stunned disbelief at what she did all day.  When she posted on the welfare thread, I knew it was time to say something.  

I totally agree with Suzie's post, and think it was very supportive for someone who needed a good kick in the butt.   Lenore claims she's not getting the support or encouragement here that she needs.  Well, a nice house and a job is pretty good support for a person who complains about how hard it is on welfare.  The last thing she needed was more "support."  She needs to actually do something with herself,the part about the brie and chowder notwithstanding. The last thing she needs is to have people telling her she's doing fine.  


I don't know too many people that would be willing to do what I offered.  Oprah Winfrey did exactly this....and every single one of the lazy welfare people squandered their wealth and opportunity and landed right on their backsides again.

I'm sure some might think I'm cruel, or should have been more sensitive, but I still think the Bible is pretty clear about all of this.  I'm confident many of you can quote verses that pertain to this.

The Bible says we should be willing to help out a brother or sister.  Well, like I mentioned below, I do that often.  Let me assure you, I was absolutely committed to doing exactly what I said I would do, and furthermore, I have the means to do it.  I would have been happy to do it.  If that isn't helping out a sister, I don't know what is.  Certainly telling her she is OK isn't helping her one bit.    Isn't that just saying, "Depart, be warm and filled?"  

Support and encouragement in the Christian sense is totally at odds with welfare and dependency.  

At least now she'll have more time to look for a part-time job typing, since she'll not be typing here.

I'm sorry for you Lenore, but I'm not going to coddle you.  Your week is already filled with activities and affirmation.  You don't need it, and it's not doing you any good whatsoever.

I think this proves my point about welfare quite nicely.

Brent,  with Suzie looking on in full agreement.

[editor]

There seems to be a lot of negativity regarding welfare receipients on our bulletin board.  I post this email address to bring to light some of the myths that surround a "typical welfare case".  I also hope that we can start some sort of fruitful discussion as a result.

http://www.wroc.org/mythfact.htm

I went to this website.  It is unabashedly trying to get more people on welfare and get more payments and benefits for the people on welfare.  I encourage everyone to look at this site and read what they have to say.

I thought this link was interesting.  It is the "jobs" link on the website.  Notice the importance they seem to place on work.

http://www.wroc.org/wroc_jobs.htm

If you want to protest on the capitol steps---children are encouraged to attend----there is much information.  If you want to lobby lawmakers to get more free money, they'll tell you how to do it.

However, if you want info on a job, you get a blank link.

This is word for word from their website.  I just cut and pasted it.  It tells you how to get away with keeping money you don't deserve.  Noble and just, the wefare people.  Here's the link  http://www.wroc.org/equit.html

How to Establish an Equitable Estoppel Defense

Equitable estoppel means stopping DSHS from taking action to collect money from you. If you are able to do this you will not have to pay back an overpayment. In order to use this defense you must show that the DSHS over paid you, but it was not your fault. You must also prove that if you are forced to pay back the over payment you will suffer hardship.

If the DSHS office is trying to collect money from you for an overpayment even though you gave them all the correct information, you need to contact the Fair Hearing Coordinator at your DSHS office. Tell that person that you want to establish an equitable estoppel defense to an overpayment. You will asked to provide information about your case. You must tell the Fair Hearing coordinator that you:

presented correct information when you r eligibility was determined;
received the benefits from the DSHS office;
used the assistance to meet your basic needs;
had no reason to doubt the DSHS eligibility decision.
Tell the Fair Hearing Coordinator that if you are forced to pay back the overpayment it will cause a "manifest injustice." You can do this by showing that:
the DSHS was at fault in the overpayment;
that you will suffer injury or be harmed if you have to pay back the DSHS because you do not have the money to pay them back and if you are forced to pay them back you will have to use money that you need for your basic necessities;
you followed the rules in establishing and maintaining eligibility and you reported all changes timely and accurately.
If you have questions about your situation or about what kind of information you will need to prove your case call us at WROC 206/324-3063.
Rev 11/99

Eulaha, I wouldn't give too much credence to the myths they list.  I think that perhaps they have another motive in mind.

Yep, I hate welfare.

Brent

[vernecarty]

Yep, I hate welfare.

Brent

The evidence suggests that it has had a devastating effect on Black families because of the way it rewards illegitimacy and the absence of males in the household.
This is a very difficult situation for while it is easy to despise folk who live such a dependent life in the richest country in the world, some of these people are third and fourth generation participants in the system and have never been taught any differently. One of the few prominent Black leaders I have heard tell folk in his church that they have no business being on wellfare is Tony Evans. I realise that sometimes there are truly extenuating circumstances, but for far too many, it appears to be a way of life.
I am also kind of surprised at people who bridle at the stigma attached to it and invoke sorry excuses like "wellfare myths" to try and justify what any person of self-respect would consider an undesirable situation. In this case stigma is good.
It serves to set you on the road to independence all the more quickly in my view.
Verne

p.s another thing that has changed, even among Christians, is that we no longer feel responsible for family...let the Government take care of 'em...

[editor]

The evidence suggests that it has had a devastating effect on Black families because of the way it rewards illegitimacy and the absence of males in the household.
This is a very difficult situation for while it is easy to despise folk who live such a dependent life in the richest country in the world, some of these people are third and fourth generation participants in the system and have never been taught any differently. One of the few prominent Black leaders I have heard tell folk in his church that they have no business being on wellfare is Tony Evans. I realise that sometimes there are truly extenuating circumstances, but for far too many, it appears to be a way of life.
I am also kind of surpised at people who bridle at the stigma attached to it and invoke sorry excuses like "wellfare myths" to try and justify what any person of self-respect would consider an undesirable situation. In this case stigma is good.
It serves to set you on the road to independence all the more quickly in my view.
Verne

The reason I hate welfare isn't because it is a good system with bad people in it.  On the contrary, it is a wicked system that has destroyed good people, as you point out above.

That there are trapped victims in the welfare system is like saying that there are fish in the sea.  Of course there are.  The question is what are we to do about it. 

I have found several things to be almost 100% true:

1.)Welfare people really don't want to work---if you offer them a job they make excuses.  Or, they take the job and fake an injury, then file a lawsuit.
2.)The longer a person is on welfare the less likely it is for them ever to escape
4.)They lie about lots of stuff, constantly.
4.)people on welfare feel so guilty and low that they like to pretend they are victims in order to cope with their guilt.

"The check's late!"
"I should get more money!"
"I'm being discrminiated against."
"I tried to work, but the boss was against me.  It was unfair."

Lot's of other stuff so they can convince themselves that they are being treated unfairly and actually deserve all the free stuff.  It's horrible, and it makes me cry to see children begin to behave this way...in about the first grade.

I'm not saying this because I'm Archie Bunker, or some right wing whacko....I say it because it's true.  I've met dozens of people on welfare, and I know many case workers.  Also, our kids school receives title 1 funding....so we know a few things there.

The only way out of it that I can see is to use hunger.  No work, no eat.  Compassionate people would be there to provide jobs, etc.

Illegal aliens have figured out that they can work seven days a week doing things that welfare folks don't want to do, like pick food, and clean things.  I submit that welfare types would pick strawberries, asparagus, broccoli and perhaps even avocados, if they had no option for free money.

Brent

[moonflower2]

I think she is gone, but I'll say it anyway: Go for it, Lenore! California has a great climate. If you don't take the house, I will.  The basement probably doesn't flood during a heavy rain. 

I can see welfare as a short-term safety net for someone who needs to get on their feet, but year after year just promotes it as a lifestyle.

I work with someone who I believe is heavier than you, Lenore, and she puts in a full day at work, takes classes at the university, and attends church all day Sunday and during the week. Is she exhausted? Yes, just like I am, and I will be working to support myself for the rest of my life.

You will find a certain amount of support from the people you work with. It's never heaven at a job, but it gives us the opportunity to learn new things and to get along with people who we didn't pick to be co-workers.

There are always evening or week-end support groups available for any need, especially, I would think, in a largely populated state like California.

Moonflower

[editor]

I think she is gone, but I'll say it anyway: Go for it, Lenore! California has a great climate. If you don't take the house, I will.  The basement probably doesn't flood during a heavy rain. 

I can see welfare as a short-term safety net for someone who needs to get on their feet, but year after year just promotes it as a lifestyle.

I work with someone who I believe is heavier than you, Lenore, and she puts in a full day at work, takes classes at the university, and attends church all day Sunday and during the week. Is she exhausted? Yes, just like I am, and I will be working to support myself for the rest of my life.

You will find a certain amount of support from the people you work with. It's never heaven at a job, but it gives us the opportunity to learn new things and to get along with people who we didn't pick to be co-workers.

There are always evening or week-end support groups available for any need, especially, I would think, in a largely populated state like California.

Moonflower

The house is only 2100 Sq feet, with granite counters and AC.  No pool, but I have one, and she could have used it if she wanted to.
Work would have been about a 30 minute walk for her, not much longer than what she is used to in Ontario.

She would have made way more than 535 dollars per month, as she lamented below.  The weather here is perfect, and she could have left after a few months vacation if she didn't like it.

I'm pretty condfident that most welfare people wouldn't ever take the risk of working, even if someone gives them the job and the house.  The idea of having to do something correctly, and within a given time frame is just too much for them.  When you are accustomed to taking all day naps whenever, work is frightening.

Only hunger will work in these cases, which is why it says:

2 thess 3:10  For even when we were with you, this we commanded you, that if any would not work, neither should he eat.

If someone is not capable of work, IE paralysis, etc.  That's another matter altogether.  One of our neighbors is paralyzed from T12 down, which means he has arms, and trunk, but nothing below the waist.  He can't do certain things, but he works full time.

Of course, a few miles away, in the public housing, there are people who aren't paralyzed, but who don't work at all.  My paralyzed neighbor pays for their lazy lifestyles from his taxes.

Oh well, I don't want to beat this horse too much to death. 

I hate welfare, and I resent those who are on it.

Brent