WELFARE MYTHS

[summer007]

Bye Lenore I'll miss your sunshiny posts.And I'll be praying for your continued recovery. Maybe some don't know you've been recovering from a serious Illness, and I always viewed your posts as sort of an outlet along with your therapy and doctors care, and meds. Well it seems you've made some leaps and bounds in the past few months. I hope you return to the board, but if not may the Lord Bless you and keep you.  Summer. 

[Eulaha L. Long]

To be honest, I had no idea to respond to the way Lenore was raked over the coals because of her daily schedule, and because she happens to be on welfare.   Never have a witnessed such a mean-spirited display on a so-called Christian bulletin board. 

I know what it's like to be plagued with severe depression.  Do you all know what it's like to wake up and wish you were dead?  Or to be so nervous all the time that you can't hold down any food for three weeks?  I went through this for over two years.  I could not work.  I could barely sit up in my bed without the assistance of caring friends.  I was taking nine different medications daily.  I HAD to go to therapy.  I HAD to be hospitalized for months at a time, because I tried many times to take my own life. 

I am eternally grateful for my family, who sent me money so I could pay my rent.  I am thankful for the friends I had to "mooch" off of in order to make it through each day.  If I have never said thank you before, I say it now: THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU!!

Brent-if you will kindly give me your mailing address, I will be more than happy to repay you the money you lent to this lazy, fat, murderous, drug-using (precription meds!), immoral and ungrateful welfare case.

[editor]

Obviously, the truth needs to be told.  I agree that coddling doesn't help people.  Whole cultures in the US are in trouble because of coddling and indulging folks who are able bodied.  It is true, IMO, if there is time and wherewithal to do some of the things listed that there should be serious consideration to some sort of employment on some level....but I'm just saying that when someone has emotional problems - it can vary daily drastically.  Men and women who haven't struggled with this find it hard to have compassion.

Thanks for responding, Sondra.

I don't think anyone would disagree with you that she is depressed.  She pretty much shared all of that with us, and the frequent mention of medication and mental health clinics made it pretty obvious.

She deleted a couple posts on the thread, but much of them are preserved in quotes.  

It all started when she responded to one of my posts by saying,  "then you recent me, Brent."

I hadn't been talking to her, or anyone else,  but making general statements about welfare.  She placed herself quite in the center of the conversation, and the rest is recorded for all to see.

Because I deal with many people in chronic pain, and because I have some training in the psychology of chronic pain, medication dependency, and the depression overlays that go with the territory.  What these people need is to get normal again, ASAP.  If they wait to feel like getting normal, they never make it.  Getting outside, standing tall, and accomplishing something worthwhile is about the best medicine for depression I know of.

I have hundreds of patients who take anti-depressants for clinical depression.  They work full time.

Just being on welfare and living that lifestyle would make me depressed.

A rent free house in California, and a job making pizza is within the grasp of the the depressed.  They can do it.  The dough just co-operates, the sauce spreads, the cheese melts, and the cardboard folds.  It really isn't that hard.  My son did it when he was 14, and he's a teenage male!  He isn't depressed, he's insane!

My 12 year old made some signs on the computer today, without anyone giving him the idea.  He offered his services as a lawn mower for five bucks a lawn.  Soon enough, someone called him and he drove the mower over and mowed their lawn.  His friend used a push mower to get the tight spots.  In a half hour, he made the five bucks, plus a 15 dollar tip.  He's 12.  

My point is that if a 12 year old can scare up work, an adult can take a job on a silver platter.  

Welfare makes people worse off than 12 year olds.  

I think half the people who work for the county are depressed.....

Brent

[editor]

To be honest, I had no idea to respond to the way Lenore was raked over the coals because of her daily schedule, and because she happens to be on welfare.   Never have a witnessed such a mean-spirited display on a so-called Christian bulletin board. 

I know what it's like to be plagued with severe depression.  Do you all know what it's like to wake up and wish you were dead?  Or to be so nervous all the time that you can't hold down any food for three weeks?  I went through this for over two years.  I could not work.  I could barely sit up in my bed without the assistance of caring friends.  I was taking nine different medications daily.  I HAD to go to therapy.  I HAD to be hospitalized for months at a time, because I tried many times to take my own life. 

I am eternally grateful for my family, who sent me money so I could pay my rent.  I am thankful for the friends I had to "mooch" off of in order to make it through each day.  If I have never said thank you before, I say it now: THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU!!

Brent-if you will kindly give me your mailing address, I will be more than happy to repay you the money you lent to this lazy, fat, murderous, drug-using (precription meds!), immoral and ungrateful welfare case.

Well, that's the first time you said thank you for the money, Eulaha. 

I didn't bring it up, you did.  Also, you can repay it if you wish, but I am not demanding it.

Your situation is a bit different than Lenore's, don't you think?  She walks, cooks, does yoga, teaches sunday school....you were physically incapacitated.  Don't you see that as being a bit different?  I sure do.

I guess my question would be how are you doing?  Are you going to be able to work, finish school?  How long do you plan to be on welfare?

You might say that Lenore was treated in a "mean-spirited" way, but I thought the offer of a house and job, plus the failsafe of a return ticket was far from mean.  It seems to me that it was a dream come true for a person who wanted to escape the cycle of poverty, as she mentioned.

Do you want to escape welfare dependency? 

Brent

[editor]

Sorry for all the run-on sentences in the last few posts.  I'm doing several things at once, and the grammer suffers.

[summer007]

Brent, It's obvious you've been BURNT by alot of people. Most likely alot of this was done in the Assembly your Goodness taken advantage of repeatedly.( There's no greater Love then to lay down your life for a friend, as Christ did for us.) You've made it clear you hate welfare and resent/despise those on it, okay. I'm just thinkin your ANGER is mis-directed, and yes I could be wrong. But do you really think you came across as sincere( ? ) Yes, its wonderful to be self-suffient, and maybe you really do want that for Lenore it just seemed scathing.  Summer.

[BenJapheth]

Greetings Everyone...

I've visited the board many times over the last year or so to see what was going on with the old assembly community. Certain things perturbed me; perhaps, nothing more so as Lenore's long and frequent posts - Something seemed off balance...The reason I say perturbed is because I knew there was no "particular reason" to be bothered - the Hitler comments were of course outrageous - but even with the benign posts something just didn't seem right.

Now I know - Lenore has been trapped in an evil system.  This poor dear woman.

Brent, your counsel is spot-on!  You are a good man for making such a wonderful offer to Lenore! Kansas has lousy weather - It's almost enough incentive to wish I were unemployed and could get myself on a plane and get over to California and make some pizza  - And, swim in your pool, too! 

I learned a ton by watching and following this enlightening exchange.

Brent you proved yourself the best of friends to Lenore.

"Faithful are the wounds of a friend...Deceitful are the kisses of the enemy"

::c:v::

[M2]

A few years ago we visited a family on welfare with the intent of providing them with a Christmas dinner and presents.  We declined because the family lived in subsidized housing, but had a nice microwave, stereo, TV etc. etc. and probably smoked.  Most welfare recipients ought not to be on welfare.

Our previous Conservative Ontario Premiere really tighten up the strings for requirements for welfare recepients.  He did a lot of good for the province.  Alas, we now have a Liberal provincial government and a lot of that is being undone.

I know that Lenore lives with the basics.  She has publicly posted that her internet service was a gift, she does not have cable service and only gets 1 TV channel that she can watch.  She lives alone and the dog and cat help with the loneliness.
IMO "physical" inability to work is not the only reason for being on welfare.

I missed most of the discussion while it was happening and have only skimmed it.  Lenore, at the point you asked if Brent resented you, he had made a general comment about welfare recipients which you took personally.  Possibly if you had asked "why" or actually discussed the matter then you might have come to agree, or agree to disagree.

God bless,
Marcia

[BenJapheth]

Brent, It's obvious you've been BURNT by alot of people. Most likely alot of this was done in the Assembly your Goodness taken advantage of repeatedly.( There's no greater Love then to lay down your life for a friend, as Christ did for us.) You've made it clear you hate welfare and resent/despise those on it, okay. I'm just thinkin your ANGER is mis-directed, and yes I could be wrong. But do you really think you came across as sincere( ? ) Yes, its wonderful to be self-suffient, and maybe you really do want that for Lenore it just seemed scathing.  Summer.

Seemed very sincere to me...The fact that Suzie got involved demonstrated that she thought he was sincere.  Who would know better than she?

Brent, you are a bit brutal - but, life is brutal, the truth is brutal...

You are the MAN, Brent - I like you, dude.

::c:v::

[editor]

Summer and Sondra,

thanks to both of you for your responses.  I typed one to summer and it got lost in cyberspace, so I'll retype some of it here as well.

Yes, I was a little depressed a day or two last week.  I found that drinking coffee made me a little depressed so I stopped drinking it.  Sure, people struggle with depression on and off.  We are human.  But experiencing daily serious ups and downs and ongoing deep depression - not in the same universe, Brent.  And I am sure I have never experienced what Lenore does just from what I've read of her posts.

Sondra

Btw.  You should thank God you didn't run into me when I was menopausal.

LOL!  for that I am truly thankful.  Quite funny!

First of all, I have never been depressed, or suicidal.  However, Suzie has, several times.

After Paulina was born, she had hormonal swings that mimicked demonic possession, and I'm not kidding.  She didn't sleep a wink for eleven days....that after pregancy, labor and childbirth, plus nursing.  Eleven days, no sleep.

She not only thought about killing herself, she thought it would be a good idea to kill all the kids too.  Please understand, she was horrified by this, because she knew it was awful, but at the same time she couldn't stop herself from the thoughts.  She had horrible repetitive, blasphemous thoughts go through her mind about the Lord.  She was repulsed by this, but couldn't stop it.  She would have killed herself just to get them to stop.

I had her watched 24/7 when I wasn't there.  The saints helped tremendously, and that is the brightest moment of our Assembly involvement.  They helped us out in a big way during that time.

It has happened again, although not to that extent, several times.  She currently has spells every few months where she can't sleep.

She takes a certain type of BC pill for the hormones, and Ambien from time to time when the insomnia starts.  If we don't nip it in the bud, she will start getting bizarre after about 4 days of no sleep.

So, I've lived with a crazy person before, and I've seen it and looked it in the eye.  The doctor wanted to institutionalize her, we trusted God.  God came through, and no one would ever know that Suzie has this problem.  She looks fabulous and is a busy, productive person, as anyone who knows us will attest.

I shudder to think of what would have happened if we had taken the meds, sent her to the hospital, been indoctrinated in the depressed lifestyle, etc.  Being a mom and getting things done was her salvation.  Thank God He gave us the strength to do it!

Brent, It's obvious you've been BURNT by alot of people. Most likely alot of this was done in the Assembly your Goodness taken advantage of repeatedly.( There's no greater Love then to lay down your life for a friend, as Christ did for us.) You've made it clear you hate welfare and resent/despise those on it, okay. I'm just thinkin your ANGER is mis-directed, and yes I could be wrong. But do you really think you came across as sincere( ? ) Yes, its wonderful to be self-suffient, and maybe you really do want that for Lenore it just seemed scathing.  Summer.

My biggest financial loss was my own doing.  Nasdaq greed, it was.  I mentioned it here before.  The next biggest loss was the money I gave to Geftakys, over and above the 10% we tithed.  In spite of being burnt like this, I'm doing fine.

Believe it or not I wasn't the least bit angry while writing those posts.  Not at all.

It was scathing, because it was true.  She really did live like that, and I was totally sincere about the house and the job.  You can't get much more sincere than that.

I wonder if the facilitator of her "A Time for Me," class would have done that?

I really believe the stuff i say, and I'm willing to back it up with action.

If Lenore was incapable of working, like Eulaha,  what is she doing with all the walking, yoga, baking, babysitting, and teaching of Sunday school?  (for that matter, what is her pastor thinking letting her watch his kids?  Maybe she is OK afterall?)

 Changing the topic somewhat, Here are a couple of things I've done in order to show my kids something about bums.  I recommend you try these yourself:

Go up to a panhandler and tell him you want to give him something but can he make change for a 50.  You will find that he has more cash than you do.  Upon seeing this, I always ask, "Why are you begging for money?  You have enough for a new shirt and a couple meals there?"  The bum always responds by saying,  "F-you you G@#damned !@#!@ard.   Go @@#$ yourself!"

Trust me, it's an object lesson that won't soon be forgotten.  Remember, you have to ask them for change, otherwise they just lie about how much money they have.

The next one is also really interesting.

When you see a guy with a "will work for food" sign.  Tell him you have a job that will take all day, for three days.  You need to move rocks, dig weeds, shovel sand, etc.  You need someone for 3 days, every day, and you will provide 4 meals a day.

The bum will always respond,  "I have a bad back," or give some other excuse why he can't do the job.  Then he'll ask you for money.  Try it.

Brent

[editor]

Seemed very sincere to me...The fact that Suzie got involved demonstrated that she thought he was sincere.  Who would know better than she?

Brent, you are a bit brutal - but, life is brutal, the truth is brutal...

You are the MAN, Brent - I like you, dude.

::c:v::

Hi Chuck!

Good to see you about the place from time to time.

I'm brutal, but I would have made that rent payment for Lenore no matter what.  I would have sold shares of my retirement plan in order to make good on my word if I had too.  That's pretty brutal,  but I really believe that the only way to help these people is to give them the one thing they can't get from the system:

a way of escape.

Sadly, that's the last thing most of them want, because it ain't so bad living like that.

Not far from here, there are a number of small houses, 800-900 sq feet.  10 people must live in each of these houses, along with a couple dogs.  They are all Mexican, and I would be surprised if all of them are legal.

Every evening they are out in the yard BBQing, with the kids.  I see them get in their trucks to go to work as I drive my oldest to his AM weight workout at 6:30 at the highschool.  These guys are going to work somewhere.

Their living conditions aren't as nice as the welfare folks, but they don't seem to mind.  God Bless them!

Did you know you can make about 20 dollars an hour picking strawberries?  That's if you're really good at it.  If you loaf you might only make 10.  You can work at an all night gas station, behind the glass, and pretty much read Purpose Driven Life all night long.....for money.

Please folks, understand that when a person is incapable of working, none of this applies.  When Suzie was insane, she couldn't work.  I don't have any wrong ideas about that.  However, she sure wasn't typing long posts, walking, doing yoga, sleeping all day, going to support groups or baby sitting....she was insane.  There's a difference.

Brent

[Mark C.]

Hi everyone,

  Okay, I will enter this fray, but I must admit I am a bit conflicted.

  Why?  Because I find myself agreeing with Sondra (with whom I have large differences of opinion on other issues) and in disagreement with Brent, with whom I usually agree.

  Also, Brent is right about Welfare (in general), and I'm sure that he is sincere in his desire to help Lenore.

  However, tough love may be effective with the lazy, but this is not Lenore's problem.  "A kick in the butt" for someone like Lenore is only likely to give her a sore behind.

  Come on people---- we need to be able to make a difference ("on some having compassion, and on others using the fear of God)"!  Yes, the bible says, "don't work don't eat", but it also says to be gentle with the weak--- hence, we don't use truth bazookas on everyone!   

 She comes on the BB making herself completely vulnerable; in her simple way trying to work through her emotional problems with us and a decision is made from this that she is a prototype of the welfare lazy fraud?!

  Paul told the Romans that the "strong" (those that understood their liberty in Christ) should not use their better knowledge to "destroy" their "weaker" fellow believer.  This tells me there is a place for the tactful use of our place, which is a stronger one, to help those that aren't where they need to be--- as the strong (the accomplised one) we can be impatient with those who have not ably conquered life as we have.

  Yes, it is very easy to become totally cynical due to those that use the status of a victim to work the system to their advantage, but is this what Lenore is doing?  Could she do better?  No doubt, but how to best encourage that change?

   Jesus walked the streets of Israel, and not only knew the hearts' of the proud Pharisee, but understood the fraud in the hearts' of the many needy---- yet, he was able to make a difference when he met Nicodemus (pharisee) and the lame man at the pool of siloam(beggar).

 Both of these came from a general class of society, but had an individuality that caused them to escape the general judgment of the whole by Jesus.

  It was a sincere and loving offer of Brent to invite Lenore to move to SLO and set her up with a job, but when offered in public in concert with ridicule of her it becomes too humiliating to accept; the offer should have been made in private.

  I do not suffer from depression, though some think I am emotionally disturbed  , I have never been on Welfare, and even in my hippie days was too proud to beg, but still feel it is insensitive to "kick butt" with poor little Lenore in some kind of misguided effort to stir her to gainful employment.  

            Still--- God bless us everyone (in the words of Tiny Tim),  Mark C.

 

   
 

[summer007]

I can't help but think of the Rich young Ruler and Jesus...Yet one thing you lack ? hum what could that be? Jesus said when you Give don't let your right hand know what your left hand is doing! Lazerous the Beggar was carried away by angels into heaven and comforted. God did'nt ask us to question the poor. He said Give and it shall be Given unto you good measure pressed down and running over.   Summer.

[Eulaha L. Long]

Brent,

I am really, really sorry for not thanking you about the money.  I honestly thought I had.  That's no excuse, though.

Currently, I receive disability benefits.  My case is reviewed on a yearly basis.  There have been no attempts on my part to try to fraud the system.  My doctor and my medical history speak for themselves.

Every day that I do not wake up feeling like hurting myself is such a blessing.  Although I am not as bad as I was a year ago, I am what is called a "rapid cycler"-generally a couple weeks of "good days", then about a month of "bad days"-severe depression, sometimes resulting in suicidal ideation. It is during those bad days that I tend to be overly sensitive and fly off the handle-like I did today.  Wel...I've been doing it for the past 2 weeks, as my post on this BB can attest.

I am almost done with my education.  I should be done in December.

[editor]

Hi everyone,

  Okay, I will enter this fray, but I must admit I am a bit conflicted.

  Why?  Because I find myself agreeing with Sondra (with whom I have large differences of opinion on other issues) and in disagreement with Brent, with whom I usually agree.

  Also, Brent is right about Welfare (in general), and I'm sure that he is sincere in his desire to help Lenore.

  However, tough love may be effective with the lazy, but this is not Lenore's problem.  "A kick in the butt" for someone like Lenore is only likely to give her a sore behind.

  Come on people---- we need to be able to make a difference ("on some having compassion, and on others using the fear of God)"!  Yes, the bible says, "don't work don't eat", but it also says to be gentle with the weak--- hence, we don't use truth bazookas on everyone!   

 She comes on the BB making herself completely vulnerable; in her simple way trying to work through her emotional problems with us and a decision is made from this that she is a prototype of the welfare lazy fraud?!

  Paul told the Romans that the "strong" (those that understood their liberty in Christ) should not use their better knowledge to "destroy" their "weaker" fellow believer.  This tells me there is a place for the tactful use of our place, which is a stronger one, to help those that aren't where they need to be--- as the strong (the accomplised one) we can be impatient with those who have not ably conquered life as we have.

  Yes, it is very easy to become totally cynical due to those that use the status of a victim to work the system to their advantage, but is this what Lenore is doing?  Could she do better?  No doubt, but how to best encourage that change?

   Jesus walked the streets of Israel, and not only knew the hearts' of the proud Pharisee, but understood the fraud in the hearts' of the many needy---- yet, he was able to make a difference when he met Nicodemus (pharisee) and the lame man at the pool of siloam(beggar).

 Both of these came from a general class of society, but had an individuality that caused them to escape the general judgment of the whole by Jesus.

  It was a sincere and loving offer of Brent to invite Lenore to move to SLO and set her up with a job, but when offered in public in concert with ridicule of her it becomes too humiliating to accept; the offer should have been made in private.

  I do not suffer from depression, though some think I am emotionally disturbed  , I have never been on Welfare, and even in my hippie days was too proud to beg, but still feel it is insensitive to "kick butt" with poor little Lenore in some kind of misguided effort to stir her to gainful employment.  

            Still--- God bless us everyone (in the words of Tiny Tim),  Mark C. 
 

The fact that you agree with Sondra, and not me is actually a breath of fresh air.

With regard to Lenore,

Please look back and you will see that I never addressed her personally.  She inserted herself into the center by saying that "you recent me, Brent."

Far from calling her a lazy welfare fraud, I offered her a huge help up and out of her problem.  I would never have even said a word to her, but she made it pretty impossible not to.

The facts of the matter are that she has problems, but she can work.

Suzie told me, a few minutes ago,  "Acting normal really helps.  Even when you know you're crazy, if you act normal it helps get you under control."

Another person from the BB PM'd me today and shared a similiar story to Lenore's.  She had no resources to help her recover for two years, and she had to go to work depressed, and tough it out.

I wouldn't have said anything, but if you read about her bowling, yoga, etc. someone's got to tell her it's time to take the next step and work.

There are plenty of jobs that aren't hard, and don't require interaction with people.  It would do her self esteem a world of good if she actually worked and provided for herself.

It's one thing when you're in the hosptial.  But after you get out, and are able to do work, you should work.  

Was she working through emotional problems here?  I seriously doubt it.  In fact, if anything, I think her participation only strengthened some of her bad habits.  Validating her lifestyle is a real disservice, IMO.

The second she got even a little dissapproval from someone she was gone, because she "didn't get the support she needs."  If we do anything at all here to help someone like her, it sure won't be to validate and encourage her choices.

I guess I should have left in a tiff when she called me Hitler?  She didn't apologize for that, or did she?  That isn't right, even for a depressed person.

She mentioned that in her "A Time for Me" class, or Pupose Driven Life, or perhaps both, had a section on being honest.  Well, if she was honest, she would have explained why she couldn't work, instead of going on and on about brie, chowder, yoga and bowling, not to mention sleeping all day.

The fact is she is capable of doing some kind of work, and she should.  If working is impossible in Ontario, due to the rules of welfare, she owes it to herself to move.

Anyone can say stuff like this, but I was willing to back it up.  

How long do you let a person wallow?  Is it right to allow a person to be "depressed" or mentally ill, so that they never have to work, even if they are able?

I just don't get it.

Brent