WELFARE MYTHS

[editor]

Brent,

This is all my fault.  I should have never started this thread in the first place!  I didn't mean for everyone to be mad at each other. 

There's nothing wrong with being challenged...it hurts at first, but ultimately it helps us to be better people.  And...it takes a lot of caring for someone to challenge us the way you (and Suzie) do!  So, thanks for caring!

Dear Eulaha,

Suzie and i really do care for you, and we do pray for you.

Thanks for listening to what i am trying to say.  I certainly hope you see through the welfare snare.  You're a person who has plenty to offer, and your life energy is worth so much more than what welfare will give you!

Get that degree, and enjoy the adventure that awaits you!  You're an heir of all things, there's nothing that can be sent your way that you can't overcome, because that's what it means to be a child of God.  Trouble? yep.  Trials? yep. Excitment?? yep.

That's life.  It feels good to try hard and ovecome adversity.  You're doing it, and keep at it.

BTW, none of this is your fault, although I think that website you listed was pretty bad.....

Perhaps all of this has a purpose?  Don't let anyone tell you that you're not good enough Eulaha.  If people listened to that stuff we'd all be living in caves and dying before 35.
Brent

[vernecarty]

I suspect folks on both sides of the discussion are genuinely interested in Lenore's best interests.
Setting aside the complications of personal angst for a moment, there are a few principles that I am really interested in.
I happen to agree with Brent that barring the constraints of poor health, industry and self-reliance is the Biblical standard. It is not clear to me from what has been discussed so far exactly what Lenore's condition is.
She has made reference to being on medication and to having to be hospitalized on at least one occasion.
She is really the only one who knows what true health condition is.

The principle that I think important in all this (again putting aside the matter of hurt feelings), is that
for someone who in able to work, but thinks that it is acceptable to choose not to,, is what Brent has been addressing.

The other principle that may be relevant has to do with the Biblical standing of widows. I do not know what Lenore's marital situation is, but Scripture does provide for support by the Church for some in the category of  
widows. The presumption is that there are no family members who can care for the indigent person and that individual being somewhat older, and beyond marraigability.
I once had some very misguided notions about work and had a brother make some rather blunt remarks to me about what I was doing. It stung, shocked, and perturbed me at the time.
It was also one of the best and most life-changing  pieces of advice I have ever received from a brother in Christ.
Verne

[M2]

My opinion, sometimes circumstances differ which make one story end differently from another.
Take Brent and Suzie's story, e.g., and place them in another assembly.  They do not get the "support" that Suzie was offered, but instead are criticized and ridiculed for not shaping up.  The wife ends up in mental hospitals from time to time.  The kids have to be cared for by grandpa and grandma. And the ending is that husband and wife end up divorced and the kids are divided between the 2 parents.
(on-edit, I was not thinking of Lenore's situation with the hypothetical scenario above.)

Re. welfare recipients, I agree (sorry Matt) that too many abuse the system.  And my sincere desire for Lenore is that she will be able to get out from its clutches and be self-supporting.  Lenore, I am not saying that you are one who is abusing the system, but it does much for one's own growth to consider and take to heart criticism as well as encouragement.

I cannot relate to Eulaha's and Lenore's and Al's and Suzie's story, so I do not really "know" what they have experienced.  I have experience depression on a much much lesser degree than they have.

God bless,
Marcia

P.S. Sondra, thank you for you most recent postings on this BB.  I have been blessed by them.
Marcia

[LENORE]

OKAY ENOUGH WILL PEOPLE PLEASE STOP GOSSIPING ABOUT ME:

I will tell you my medical problems:
I HAVE CHRONIC DEPRESSION, it is always with you,never goes away
due to some pretty PST evident in my  life.
Please Research
also suffer from severe bladder incontinence & I also have diviculitis/Irrated Bowel Sydrome and mild case of Colitis. which make bathroom availability a necessary tracking on any of my walking journeys.
I am severely hard of hearing, I am going deaf.
I have severe osteo arthritis pain.

I am going to admit that I had a second mild breakdown a year ago, one year after the major one. These breakdowns were not the first occurence in my  life.
I am suicidical at times, and have attempted it twice.

The Community Mental Health Clinic which I am a client, is a place where I go for socialization and the activities which I mention on my posting Daily Chatting, is for building me up strength wise physically, emotionally and spiritually.
Because of the state I was in a year ago. I need the motivation to get out of bed and to g et out of the house. Else I wouldnt of , the only place where I went would of been church.

Despite of all the turmoil I went through last year I did complete a 10 week computer course.

I am enclosing something :


WORK HISTORY

Ø CASHIER/CUSTOMER SERVICE
2001-2004 REXALL DRUG STORE, ARNPRIOR, ONTARIO

Ø CASHIER/CUSTOMER SERVICE
1998-2001 MCDONALD RESTAURANT, ARNPRIOR, ONTARIO

Ø ANIMAL CLINIC AIDE/RECEPTIONIST
1990-1995 INGRAM ANIMAL HOSPITAL, ARNPRIOR, ONTARIO

Ø CLERK/TYPIST
Ø 1977-1983. VARIOUS GOVERNMENT DEPARTMENTS

EDUCATION

COMPUTER COURSE CERTIFICATE, 10 WEEK BASIC KNOWLEDGE COMPUTER SKILLS
INCLUDED WORD, EXCEL, INTERNET, EMAILING ..PLUS JOB READINESS SKILLS

CLERK/TYPIST CERTIFICATE, ALGONQUIN COLLEGE, NEPEAN, ONTARIO

ONTARIO SECONDARY SCHOOL EDUCATION ARNPRIOR & DISTRICT HIGH SCHOOL, ARNPRIOR, ONT.

VARIOUS WORKSHOPS:
INCLUDING JOB FINDING CLUB, LEADERSHIP WORKSHOP, CHILD ABUSE PREVENTION WORKSHOPS, and CUSTOMER SERVICE/SHRINKAGE PREVENTION WORKSHOPS.

COMMUNITY SERVICES/SKILL & EXPERIENCES



PUBLIC SPEAKING , LEADING A DISCUSSION GROUP, PRESENTS A TOPIC TO A GROUP OF PEOPLE.
CONFIDENTLY HANDLE CASH, COMPUTERIZE CASH REGISTER
TEACH CHILDREN, AND PREPARE LESSON PLANS
ORGANIZE AND PREPARE FOR A SOCIAL EVENT.
HARD WORKING, DEPENDABLE, SOCIABLE.
CUSTOMER FRIENDLY

[al Hartman]

First, I'd like answer Al Hartman.

Al, I have treated a number of people on welfare over the years.  Half of them paid with cash.  Another 20%, an aged parent would acompany them to the office and handle the finances for them.

Fully 30% of them turned out to be total deadbeats.  They would "forget" their wallet or purse on the first visit, make a partial payment on the second visit, and then disappear.  Checks bounce all the time from these people, and often the address or phone turn out to be fake.  Most of my accounts receivable now, is from the welfare class.

My malpractice carrier has a whole workshop on how to deal with this strata of society, because they are by far the most likely to sue a doctor.  In SLO, most of the babies born are from single, welfare mothers on Medi-cal.  This accounts for a little more than half of births here.  (Families can't afford to purchase a home in SLO. The median price is over 400k.  But welfare folks get it all.)  The OB GYN's are getting hit hard with lawsuits when the babies don't come out right....anyhow, I digress.

Here's why I don't withhold treatment, Al.  I think it's good for them to pay for something they value.  Even if it's just cigarettes.  If they value it, they must pay.  I KNOW the liquor store won't let them smoke on credit.....so I ask them for cash.  Unless I decide to treat them for free, which is often.  That's my choice, and I make it of my own free will.  Quite different than being forced to do it, which I won't do.  So, treating welfare people doesn't violate my principles at all.  I'm not sure exactly what you were trying to get at, but the direct question part I answered. 

Brent,

Thanks.  It was an honest question.  I thought that my saying "just curious" would make that plain.  I prefer not to engage in cat-&-mouse trickery.  Plain conversation is difficult enough on the BB without playing games.  I'd appreciate your pointing out what part of my post is not part of the direct question...  the part where you wonder exactly what I was "trying to get at"?

I asked.  You answered.  Shouldn't that suffice without our needing to imply hidden motives?

The rest of you should be ashamed of yourselves!  Al, I expect this crap from you.  Mark, you dissappoint me tremendously.

Again, I would be obliged if you would point out any instance on this thread where I have given you what you deem "crap," Brent.  I can't help however it is that you feel or think about me, but I have gone to extremes to not be unnecessarily confrontational with you.  Although I disagree with much of what you say, and am both hurt and concerned by the way you appear to treat others, you are responsible to Christ for all that and I have no reason or desire to want you to answer to me for anything.  As for the subject of the welfare system, I had not considered it evil (it hadn't occurred to me), but otherwise I pretty much share your opinion of how it is operated and what it has become.
For those who have begun to forget what it was like to be led by Geftakys, these are some examples of what I recall of his "leadership":

He was NEVER wrong.***  I have witnessed him diametrically change his position on a matter without ever having been wrong.

Anyone who disagreed with him was WRONG.  No exceptions.  There was no room for other opinions.  Period.  It was his way or the whizway.

He would not conduct a private conversation with a peer.  He was peerless.  No one was worthy to approach him on a level field.  He would only talk down to anyone else, never just as a brother in Christ.

He publicly humiliated those he disagreed with, those he feared, and any he otherwise disapproved of or disliked.  He mocked them, laughed at them, ridiculed them, called them names, and twisted their words.

He exaggerated his own position and his criticisms of others, always to the advantage of his public image and to the detriment of those he opposed.

He bragged of his wisdom and strength of character & will.  He derided those he considered weak, and especially those he wanted to make appear to be weak.

He had his "groupies" who, each for his own reasons, would support and follow him anywhere, through anything, believing (or at least professing) that he could do no wrong.  Verne summed it up well: they were hoping to become "something."  And they did: they became misled, confused, disillusioned, ruined...

In all of these things, George was NEVER wrong.***

***For clarity's sake:  George would readily admit that he had made mistakes in his lifetime, but they were always in the past, never in the present.  No one could catch him making one.


For any who wonder what I may be "trying to get at," the above "attributes of George" pretty much parallel my opinion of Brent's conduct on this bulletin board.  I do not like saying such things about a brother in Christ.  I state them without rancor or any personal motive only because I believe Brent's conduct is unbefitting one who is looked to as a shepherd.  I may be wrong, and I am prepared to hear and take to heart any and all replies.

Verne said:

I once had some very misguided notions ...and had a brother make some rather blunt remarks to me about what I was doing.  It stung, shocked, and perturbed me at the time.
It was also one of the best and most life-changing  pieces of advice I have ever received from a brother in Christ.

I have personally profited by the criticisms I have received on the BB, the references to my tendencies toward carrying on the LB traditions and mannerisms, etc.  I hope, and refuse to doubt, Brent, that you can and will do the same...

In Christ,
al

[M2]

....
For those who have begun to forget what it was like to be led by Geftakys, these are some examples of what I recall of his "leadership":

He was NEVER wrong.***  I have witnessed him diametrically change his position on a matter without ever having been wrong.

Anyone who disagreed with him was WRONG.  No exceptions.  There was no room for other opinions.  Period.  It was his way or the whizway.

He would not conduct a private conversation with a peer.  He was peerless.  No one was worthy to approach him on a level field.  He would only talk down to anyone else, never just as a brother in Christ.

He publicly humiliated those he disagreed with, those he feared, and any he otherwise disapproved of or disliked.  He mocked them, laughed at them, ridiculed them, called them names, and twisted their words.

He exaggerated his own position and his criticisms of others, always to the advantage of his public image and to the detriment of those he opposed.

He bragged of his wisdom and strength of character & will.  He derided those he considered weak, and especially those he wanted to make appear to be weak.

He had his "groupies" who, each for his own reasons, would support and follow him anywhere, through anything, believing (or at least professing) that he could do no wrong.  Verne summed it up well: they were hoping to become "something."  And they did: they became misled, confused, disillusioned, ruined...

In all of these things, George was NEVER wrong.***

***For clarity's sake:  George would readily admit that he had made mistakes in his lifetime, but they were always in the past, never in the present.  No one could catch him making one.


For any who wonder what I may be "trying to get at," the above "attributes of George" pretty much parallel my opinion of Brent's conduct on this bulletin board.  I do not like saying such things about a brother in Christ.  I state them without rancor or any personal motive only because I believe Brent's conduct is unbefitting one who is looked to as a shepherd.  I may be wrong, and I am prepared to hear and take to heart any and all replies.
....
In Christ,
al

I was hoping to avoid commenting on this, but...

Al, looks like you knew George quite well and, since you left a long time ago, that things were bad right from the beginning of the Geftakys assembly movement.

Your connections, however, I disagree with.  This is not a mathematical formula or a computer program where if-then-else logic will work.  George and Brent are 2 different individuals.  I do not agree that the same evil is at work here.  I would rather have Brent's clear blunt commentary, than remain in my assembly fog of deception.

You may not like Brent's method of stating his opinion, but at least consider what he is saying.

If you can prove that he has ulterior motives, or is lying or something, then that would be a different story.  I do not see that happening here.

Marcia

[CAGirl]

Eulaha,
   This is so not your fault. Don’t slide into guilt over this.

Lenore,
   If you don’t want people to gossip about you stop putting your info out there. I.e. your resume and how you spend your days.

Brent,
   What a cool offer!! If I were still on the central coast I would take you up on it in a heart beat. A house and a job!!! Handed to me?? And people like your family in my life and supporting me? WOW!!  

For those that don’t know me, I am 23 years old and raised at the very core of the assembly. One day my mom walked out (I’m glad she did) and left me with the choice to stay in my home with my crazy dad or find another way to live. Since that day I have moved well over 10 times, been hospitalized for 3rd degree burns, gone threw rehab for it, been hospitalized for a nervous breakdown and recovered from that. I have never been on welfare. I have worked full time and paid every penny of my hospital bills and my household bills. I would love to do yoga, have a gym membership, time for support groups, above all time and money for school but as for now, I have to work hard and take trains and busses and live on a tight budget so that I can remain the self sufficient person I have made myself. And you know what? Being that self sufficient person will give me more self esteem than all the groups in the world. Lenor is right that the work visa and green card would be a hurdle but what it looks like to me is that she is more upset on being called on her choices than anything else. It’s not easy to keep your head above water but it’s not impossible. I think maybe she needs to “trim the fat” a little. But if I can do it so can she.

[editor]

Eulaha,
   This is so not your fault. Don’t slide into guilt over this.

Lenore,
   If you don’t want people to gossip about you stop putting your info out there. I.e. your resume and how you spend your days.

Brent,
   What a cool offer!! If I were still on the central coast I would take you up on it in a heart beat. A house and a job!!! Handed to me?? And people like your family in my life and supporting me? WOW!!  

For those that don’t know me, I am 23 years old and raised at the very core of the assembly. One day my mom walked out (I’m glad she did) and left me with the choice to stay in my home with my crazy dad or find another way to live. Since that day I have moved well over 10 times, been hospitalized for 3rd degree burns, gone threw rehab for it, been hospitalized for a nervous breakdown and recovered from that. I have never been on welfare. I have worked full time and paid every penny of my hospital bills and my household bills. I would love to do yoga, have a gym membership, time for support groups, above all time and money for school but as for now, I have to work hard and take trains and busses and live on a tight budget so that I can remain the self sufficient person I have made myself. And you know what? Being that self sufficient person will give me more self esteem than all the groups in the world. Lenor is right that the work visa and green card would be a hurdle but what it looks like to me is that she is more upset on being called on her choices than anything else. It’s not easy to keep your head above water but it’s not impossible. I think maybe she needs to “trim the fat” a little. But if I can do it so can she.

WORD!!!

You've got it.  Good job.  Instead of being a professional sluggard and victim, you're being a person.

I commend you, Rebecca.

Let's see, you've overcome:

A whacked family
Depression
Physical incapactitation
financial ruin
Mental illness
Overwight?

And you're not on welfare?  Awesome.  Thanks for sharing.

Brent

[CAGirl]

Brent,
   Thanks. It feels great to be commended. Overweight?? Well I went from 150 to 195 lbs then I realized how hard it was on my body and started doing something about it. And hey, it’s hard to gain weight on a Top Romen diet. As far as welfare, it would be my last and I mean last resort. No sir. I’m my own me and my life is mien. I have me to thank for everything I have. And that feels great!!!

[Tony]

Al,

   Dear brother, i get the impression from your post that you still have some heavy baggage around what your involvement with George did to your life.   Based on what you've shared here for the past two years, I'm not surprised.   

You said"
"For those who have begun to forget what it was like to be led by Geftakys, these are some examples of what I recall of his "leadership":

He was NEVER wrong.***  I have witnessed him diametrically change his position on a matter without ever having been wrong.

Anyone who disagreed with him was WRONG.  No exceptions.  There was no room for other opinions.  Period.  It was his way or the whizway.

He would not conduct a private conversation with a peer.  He was peerless.  No one was worthy to approach him on a level field.  He would only talk down
to anyone else, never just as a brother in Christ.

He publicly humiliated those he disagreed with, those he feared, and any he otherwise disapproved of or disliked.  He mocked them, laughed at them, ridiculed
them, called them names, and twisted their words.

He exaggerated his own position and his criticisms of others, always to the advantage of his public image and to the detriment of those he opposed.

He bragged of his wisdom and strength of character & will.  He derided those he considered weak, and especially those he wanted to make appear to be weak.

He had his "groupies" who, each for his own reasons, would support and follow him anywhere, through anything, believing (or at least professing) that he
could do no wrong.  Verne summed it up well: they were hoping to become "something."  And they did: they became misled, confused, disillusioned, ruined...

In all of these things, George was NEVER wrong.***

***For clarity's sake:  George would readily admit that he had made mistakes in his lifetime, but they were always in the past, never in the present.  No
one could catch him making one."

   Based on most of what I've read and all of what I've heard from former members and LB's, your observations/assessments of GG are very accurate.


But, you make a leap to:

"For any who wonder what I may be "trying to get at," the above "attributes of George" pretty much parallel my opinion of Brent's conduct on this bulletin
board."

   From my own perspective, I can see no comparison of Brent to George...though they may both come off as very proud men, I think Brent's pride is genuine and George's was either a product of fear, dillusion or a much darker influence.


"  I do not like saying such things about a brother in Christ.  I state them without rancor or any personal motive only because I believe Brent's
conduct is unbefitting one who is looked to as a shepherd.  I may be wrong, and I am prepared to hear and take to heart any and all replies.
...."


   Please!  Hold it!  Stop!   If there is anyone out there that is looking to Brent as a Shepherd, they have got some issues.   If they look at him as a resource, a hero or another brother in Christ with some rough edges (give me the sand paper when you are done <grin>), then I dont' see an issue.

   Don't anyone forget that it took a personality like Brent's to pursue the revealing of truth surrounding the years of deception perpetrated by Geftakys and his clones.   But for someone to think of him as a shepherd, I find even the suggestion of that to be insulting.

I rarely go back beyond the 10 most recent posts on this board.  But, when I saw this one, I felt the need to follow it from the beginning.   What I saw from Brent did not surprise me, nor did it offend me, then Lenore made the comment about Brent resenting her...and then Brent let loose with what appeared to be pent up frustrations with the welfare system...I think that one's perspective and personality has a lot to do with how they are going to react and it is easy for those of us who have another perception or interest in the subject to get offended or misinterpret what is being said, whether or not we "approve" of the way it is said.
   Personally, I would have liked to see much of the discussion between Lenore and Brent handled in PM's...but it wasn't...so let's not make more of this as it will probably be misinterpreted anyway.

I like this comment by Marcia,
"I do not agree that the same evil is at work here.  I would rather have Brent's clear blunt commentary, than remain in my
assembly fog of deception."

And Marcia pretty much said the same thing but probably much clearer...

"You may not like Brent's method of stating his opinion, but at least consider what he is saying."

C-ya, Tony

[editor]

Al,

   Dear brother, i get the impression from your post that you still have some heavy baggage around what your involvement with George did to your life.   Based on what you've shared here for the past two years, I'm not surprised.   

You said"
"For those who have begun to forget what it was like to be led by Geftakys, these are some examples of what I recall of his "leadership":

He was NEVER wrong.***  I have witnessed him diametrically change his position on a matter without ever having been wrong.

Anyone who disagreed with him was WRONG.  No exceptions.  There was no room for other opinions.  Period.  It was his way or the whizway.

He would not conduct a private conversation with a peer.  He was peerless.  No one was worthy to approach him on a level field.  He would only talk down
to anyone else, never just as a brother in Christ.

He publicly humiliated those he disagreed with, those he feared, and any he otherwise disapproved of or disliked.  He mocked them, laughed at them, ridiculed
them, called them names, and twisted their words.

He exaggerated his own position and his criticisms of others, always to the advantage of his public image and to the detriment of those he opposed.

He bragged of his wisdom and strength of character & will.  He derided those he considered weak, and especially those he wanted to make appear to be weak.

He had his "groupies" who, each for his own reasons, would support and follow him anywhere, through anything, believing (or at least professing) that he
could do no wrong.  Verne summed it up well: they were hoping to become "something."  And they did: they became misled, confused, disillusioned, ruined...

In all of these things, George was NEVER wrong.***

***For clarity's sake:  George would readily admit that he had made mistakes in his lifetime, but they were always in the past, never in the present.  No
one could catch him making one."

   Based on most of what I've read and all of what I've heard from former members and LB's, your observations/assessments of GG are very accurate.


But, you make a leap to:

"For any who wonder what I may be "trying to get at," the above "attributes of George" pretty much parallel my opinion of Brent's conduct on this bulletin
board."

   From my own perspective, I can see no comparison of Brent to George...though they may both come off as very proud men, I think Brent's pride is genuine and George's was either a product of fear, dillusion or a much darker influence.


"  I do not like saying such things about a brother in Christ.  I state them without rancor or any personal motive only because I believe Brent's
conduct is unbefitting one who is looked to as a shepherd.  I may be wrong, and I am prepared to hear and take to heart any and all replies.
...."


   Please!  Hold it!  Stop!   If there is anyone out there that is looking to Brent as a Shepherd, they have got some issues.   If they look at him as a resource, a hero or another brother in Christ with some rough edges (give me the sand paper when you are done <grin>), then I dont' see an issue.

   Don't anyone forget that it took a personality like Brent's to pursue the revealing of truth surrounding the years of deception perpetrated by Geftakys and his clones.   But for someone to think of him as a shepherd, I find even the suggestion of that to be insulting.

I rarely go back beyond the 10 most recent posts on this board.  But, when I saw this one, I felt the need to follow it from the beginning.   What I saw from Brent did not surprise me, nor did it offend me, then Lenore made the comment about Brent resenting her...and then Brent let loose with what appeared to be pent up frustrations with the welfare system...I think that one's perspective and personality has a lot to do with how they are going to react and it is easy for those of us who have another perception or interest in the subject to get offended or misinterpret what is being said, whether or not we "approve" of the way it is said.
   Personally, I would have liked to see much of the discussion between Lenore and Brent handled in PM's...but it wasn't...so let's not make more of this as it will probably be misinterpreted anyway.

I like this comment by Marcia,
"I do not agree that the same evil is at work here.  I would rather have Brent's clear blunt commentary, than remain in my
assembly fog of deception."

And Marcia pretty much said the same thing but probably much clearer...

"You may not like Brent's method of stating his opinion, but at least consider what he is saying."

C-ya, Tony

Thanks for weighing in Tony:

I have never proclaimed myself to be a shepherd, and have never wanted to be one. If I think people start looking to me for that, i usually warn them off, and have done so repeatedly during my tenure here.  I'm not even a moderator on the BB!

As for being compared with George, I take that almost as seriously as being compared to Hitler.  It's merely a humorous annecdote to spice up my day.

Al is basically dishonest.  He is always trying to get some edge, some way of scoring a zinger against me. Of course, he always does this in a way that "exhalts the majestic Name of Our Blessed Lord and Savior Jesus Christ."  He hasn't really been able to do so, but he sensed that since everyone seemed to be mad at me, now was his chance to make a bold move! 

Compare Brent with George! 

The simple fact of the matter is that this has been done before, and someone can go back and search out how I handled it the last time. 

I'll admit when I'm wrong, and I'm no respector of persons. Ask Verne.  Ask Sondra.

The problem with Al isn't that I won't admit when I'm wrong, but that I don't back down when I'm right.  George grew to dislike this about me as well.

Al, your a poser.  You ingratiate yourself to me one minute, and then call me "George" the next.  Stick to humor.

Folks, if this was a dinner party, or Senatorial fund raising dinner, we wouldn't be talking about things like this.

However, this is a BB with a very narrow audience.  We share ideas here, and many of us try to be honest with eachother about our ideas, passionate even.  If I'm at a wine and hors' de orveous party, I won't talk this way.  But this is the place we can do it.

This is the sort of exchange that goes on when groups of people who have principles get together.  This is how grand ideas are brought about.  Debate and honesty.

Al, how often did George foster honest debate? Furthermore, how often did he let you speak your mind?  I haven't deleted you yet, have I?

Can YOU ADMIT YOU ARE WRONG? 

I'm not George, or Adolph.

Brent

[vernecarty]

The power of suggestion is a remarkable thing. This BB started as a place where those of us affected by the apostate George Geftakys could vent our disaffections and generally ruminate about that era and what it was that led us to be so gullible.
The commnets about shepherds and shepherding have all been made by others, not once by any regular poster on this BB. It has to be obvious to anyone who has done much reading here that the playing field is fairly level.
Peerage is the order of the day. Some of the comments being made about the man who started it all is proof positive of that stark reality.
I think most of us attend churches where there are pastors and elders. We ought not to so readily accept that the BB is anything more than a place where we as believers as well as others simply share opinions.
I know some have suggested people who post here are looking for followers - do any of your really believe that?...I did not think so.
The sharpest knife you can stick in anyone on this BB's back, is to tell them that they are like George Geftakys.
I have had it done to me. Think about what that implies, after all we have been through!
I would never say that to someone unless I really believed it to be true, and that there was evidence to support it!
As strong disagreements with the men on this board that I have had, none of them in my mind, for any number of reasons, even begin to approach the enormity of the sin of George Geftakys.
An accusation like that, suggests to me that some of don't think what he did was that bad...
Verne

[Dede Hoag]

Hi All,  I know I rarely post, but I am compelled on this topic of Welfare and Mental Illness.  My main posts got lost in the software transfer.  I fellowshipped in Huntington Beach for about 8 years.  THIS POST IS IN 2 SEPARATE POST

POST !
I want to say something because I see that some pertinent information is being left out on this topic.  I want to talk about some of the practical out workings of Mental Illnesses, which  typically ranges from Clinical Depression to Bi-polarism to Schizophrenia, and how it makes one unemployable.  Forgive me if I use any of the terms in an improper way.

No doubt, many mentally ill persons are able to get the care they need via doctors and stay on top of the ever changing prescriptive needs, while at the same time maintaining a job.  But many cannot.  Often times after several failed attempts to maintain a “normal” routine, they find it easier to stay on disability and eliminate the stress of trying to keep a job.  Going in and out of the jobs tends to exacerbate the illness causing hospitalization, and possibly worse.  Staying home offers the stability of a daily, quiet routine.

Such instability also causes a patient to become homeless losing all possessions, damaging family relationships, and to become vulnerable to predators as there is usually a lull before they can obtain governmental or other assistance to get back on their feet. 

Then they start all over and must answer the question of a potential employer, “Why did you leave your last job?”, “Why so many gaps between jobs?”,  or “What have you been doing the last 6 mos.?”.  The fact is that this illness still has a lot of stigma and is still cause for work place discrimination. 

What employer wants to hire someone with this kind of disability believing that chances are they will have to fill the position again in 6 months after who knows what kind of disruption to the work place has been created?  Most people are aware that mental illness frequently means instability, and stability is a primary requirement for job qualification.  Discrimination laws can’t protect against this.

In the U.S. the government can assist the disabled in finding a job, but most such jobs pay less than disability/welfare and coupled with periodic unemployment, simply cannot sustain a living.  This only adds to the existing tendency to feel worthless and/or hopeless.

Also in the U.S. a worker is somewhat protected from losing their job due to a disability, but seeking such protection when it is needful is especially difficult when one is in the throws of a severe depressive or psychotic episode.  Additionally, the period of time that a job can be held is limited, and it can be just too embarrassing to return to the same job to possibly face the ignorance and cruel jokes of co-workers.

Imagine the task of raising children while under such a burdensome illness.  Many do not develop the disease until their late teens or early twenties, some later.  My mother was one such person, having had 4 children by the time she was diagnosed, then abandoned by her husband.  I, for one, am very grateful for Welfare. 

It took Mom years to become employable due to the severity of her illness and the limited types of medication back then. Caring for 4 children must have been a daily stressor in and of itself.  She was forced to go to work so what little focused attention we kids were able to get from her was usurped by her jobs.  No one told her that she may be a candidate for Social Security Disability until after we were all grown, and even then she was able to support herself most of the time.  And I don’t recall her ever complaining about having to take menial jobs.  I think in her case working helped motivate her to stay on top of her illness and escape 4 unruly kids, but still she spent her life under employed, and in and out of sanity.

One of the major struggles for the mentally ill is coming to terms with the necessity of taking drugs as the drugs tend to desensitize the mind and emotions to the everyday joys of life. Many prefer the manic/depressive or psychotic state being unable to bear the listlissness the drugs create or their other side effects.  It’s not uncommon for it to take years to acquiesce to a prescription drug regimen.  The drug therapies available have improved tremendously but they are limited in their effectiveness and patients can still have episodes while taking them. 

Many turn to alcohol and drugs in an attempt to self medicate and end up in the bondage of addiction.  I know a woman who was not properly diagnosed until she was in her early 40’s and the birth of her 3rd child triggered a major breakdown, and this was after a lifetime of suicide attempts and alcohol abuse.  I spoke to her mother who said all the signs where there when she was younger but she didn’t recognize them, she just thought her daughter was a drug addict. Many of the symptoms mimic drug abuse. They had become estranged for years.

One question is: should not a patient’s family care for them instead of the government?  Apparently enough families have alleviated themselves of such persons, or the ill persons have decided to leave on their own, many for good reasons, thereby causing it to become a societal problem, hence welfare.  I can attest to how difficult it is to live and work with a mentally ill person.  It can be both stressful and disruptive.  There are many illnesses that affect mental functioning.

[Dede Hoag]

POST 2

My Mother, during her 40 years of medicating and all it’s side effects, periodically decides to give it a go without the drugs.  She just gets sick of the constant battle to find a comfortable mixture.  She will drift in and out normalcy until something happens to trigger stress and increases her symptoms. She usually lasts about 3 months without meds.  We are very fortunate because her particularly type of mental illness does not include suicidal tendencies and she only occasionally needs hospitalization.  She is trying to find a doctor in her HMO who is willing to work with her desire to only periodically medicate.  She has become more experienced and responsible in managing her illness and it helps that she is now retired and has a husband who is understanding of her issues, but still at times he is weary of it all.  They are both unbelievers. 

But myself and my siblings, when as teens, and then in our twenties, had adopted the policy of pushing her to take her medication.  Mostly because her illness was an inconvenience for us and we could not financially support her when she was having an episode and was unable to work.  She needed someone to stay home and watch her as she would leave the house and get lost.  She would become closed off to seeing a doctor since she couldn’t recognize her illness. 

We saw her as miserable and were intolerant of her behavior/symptoms.  Now I can look back at the obstacles she has had to overcome thus far, including unsupportive children, and I can say I admire her perseverance.  Knowing what I know now about the disease I now support her in her choice to not medicate since she no longer has the responsibility of raising children.  I may change my mind should I ever have to take care of her in her latter years, and that will depend on her willingness to seek help when she gets too close to the edge.  But that’s the problem, we all use a different yard stick.

The laws in California support a patient’s right not to medicate if they are not a physical threat.  Even then, the length of involuntary treatment is very regulated, usually 3 days maximum if the patient shows improvement, if not then 2 weeks is permitted but most medical plans try to avoid this.  After that, the doctor must be able to document grave danger in order to justify further institutionalization.  Previously the state found it very expensive to enforce stricter laws requiring medication for those who did not want it, and those laws were abused.  With the better drugs and outpatient treatment programs available now, there are many success stories.

Mental Illness is a very complicated disease with as many variations as there are sufferers because it directly affects the way each individual thinks and feels.  It is also an illness where grace tends to fly out of the window on the part of those in close contact to the afflicted when confronted by it’s symptoms.

Praise the Lord for the advances in medicine that has legitimized the illness and affords the sufferer a greater degree “normalcy”.  What is really “normal” when it comes to a mental state?  Christians are constantly becoming aware of their own fractured, dysfunctional hearts and minds.  Isn’t this the why of this website?  This Board is a kind of therapy for most of us.  There are many on the sidelines like myself who just read the posts and don’t participate in the discussions but are compelled to observe. 

The few mentally ill persons I have known I have come to appreciate for their uniqueness, even though, I’m ashamed to say, I’m sometimes annoyed by some of their behaviors. Sometimes it's good to be annoyed, it prompts you to grow.  Then, oftentimes, I am impressed by their forthrightness.  Anyway, it helps to learn as much as possible about the disease.  There is abundant info available on the WEB.

Here is a great resource I recommend to anyone who would like to do further research on the subject.  I had found this story a few years ago written by a Christian woman, Gayle Darhower, who suffers from Bipolarism, “Seek His Face He Will Provide”.  In it she tells of the inner workings of her life and mind with great insight, and how the disease affects her relationships to her family and to God.  She lists the scriptures that have supported her thru the tough times and doesn’t sidestep the issue of sin.  She used to have the story posted to her website but it appears that it has been published as a book so now you can only get the highlights on her website at seekhisfacehewillprovide.com.  It’s worth a look.

2 Corinthians 1:3-4       Blessed be God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies, and the God of all comfort;  Who comforteth us in all our tribulation, that we may be able to comfort them which are in any trouble, by the comfort wherewith we ourselves are comforted of God.

Dede Hoag

[al Hartman]

Al, how often did George foster honest debate? Furthermore, how often did he let you speak your mind?  I haven't deleted you yet, have I?

Can YOU ADMIT YOU ARE WRONG? 

I'm not George, or Adolph.

Brent

George didn't foster honest debate.  Sometimes he would set a trap and lure someone into it just to humiliate the other in debate and exalt himself.

I have not meant to call you George or Adolph, nor have I accused you of evil.  I simply suggest that, for reasons I cannot explain, you behave in manners that resemble his: demeaning, oppressing and attempting to control others (your denials not withstanding).  

I have called you no names.  You have called me idiot, freak, poser and basically dishonest.  You have accused me of "ingratiating myself" to you.  I can only assume that claim is based on some posts or personal messages where I did not oppose you.  Frankly, I would love to be on friendly terms with you, but I don't know how to do that (a difficulty I have rarely encountered).

I have personally defended you to others in responses to e-mails which questioned your judgment or integrity, but I have never done so publicly for the very purpose of not appearing to ingratiate you.  I have nothing bad to say about you, nor do I mean to demean you before others.

I have attempted to address you personally on matters of concern.  Rather than engage in private exchanges of ideas, you have refused me and instead brought the matter to the BB to mock me.  You even brag of your mocking of those who disagree with you.

You say I seek to gain some edge over you, to "score a zinger."  I was already trying to wean myself from such a lifestyle when Tom and Mark met me in the '60s & '70s.  Admittedly, when I first came to this board (two years ago?), sarcastic debate was in vogue here, and I entered into it.  But it is wrong for me, and I attempt to avoid it.  Possibly, you may read some of your own personality and methods into my words, thus thinking that I am intending what you would be intending if you had said them.  I've certainly done that to others many times.

Christ is building, through His saints, one new Man.  We don't need an "edge" over one another.  We need to find and occupy what ground we have in common.  I'm sorry that you find my mentions of Christ distasteful, but I am being who I am.  It took me a very long time to begin to realize the enormity of who Christ is and what He has done for us.  The more I learn of Him, the more I realize how little I appreciate His sacrifice, and the relationship between us that it has purchased.  I do not wish to be, or to seem to be ashamed to speak of Him.  If you find such speech sickening or distasteful, I am sorry, but I can only refer you to Eph.4:29-32.  The fact that you do not like to speak of Christ in the same manner I do tells me nothing at all about your soul, but is understandable to me in light of our assembly past.  I experienced a long spell of distaste for it myself before I finally began to understand the meaning of God's grace and how it affects us.  It reminded me of George's (and MY) phoniness in the assembly.  I had to learn that it was the speaker (GG, me, etc) that was phony and not the subject matter-- we had been faking what generations who preceeded us had said in earnest.  I try to be very careful to mean every word I say now-- even hope to succeed at it eventually...

If all my posts are still available, you will find that I have admitted when I see that I'm wrong.  I think you even said that I was "courageous" for doing so on one occasion.  I did not and do not feel courageous, but I am as honest as I know how to be.  If I am self-deceived, then that's where I must count on the ministry of other members of Christ's body to help me see the truth about myself.  You have been instrumental in that respect, which I have never denied.

I did not call you a shepherd, but suggested that others regard you as such.  There are readers here whose only Christian contact is this BB.  I do not consider this a church in the classic or the scriptural sense, and yet all believers are parts of the church universal.  You are listed here as an "administrator" and your name appears in color.  You have the ability to delete or edit posts, and have threatened to edit Lenore's posts under certain conditions.  That may have been not a threat but just one of your clever ironic ways of making a point, but Lenore clearly took it seriously.  At any rate, I believe that some on the BB regard you, because of your strong opinions and your authoritative powers, to be a shepherd of the Lord's people hereabouts.  If that is so, then your denying it won't change their minds.

Bottom line:  I consider Brent Tr0ckman a brother in Christ and I have no reason to think otherwise about him.  As such, he is a sinner saved by grace, as yet imperfect, and in need of the ministry of the rest of Christ's body (just as I am, and are all others who Christ has claimed).

I have not called Brent  Adolph, or George, or evil, or any other detrimental name or title that I am aware of.

I have stated that some of Brent's behavior toward his brethren smacks of assembly leadership behavior as exemplified by the behavior of George Geftakys.  This is not comparing the one man to the other.

Let me say it as plainly as I know how:  Brent is not evil.  Brent is not bad.  Brent is saved, sanctified and on his way to heaven.

But Brent is not perfect, and some of his behavior is detrimental and damaging (as is some of mine, and that of the others who Christ has claimed for His own).

...and all I mean is to acknowledge that I and my brethren who read this belong to God, when I close by saying

In Christ,
al