WELFARE MYTHS

[moonflower2]

Well, I don't think that post-partum disorders are learned from one's parents. I didn't know that it existed before it happened to me.

I don't think that the inability to sleep in a manic phase of PP disorder is a "learned" behavior, either. My mother didn't have any obvious bi-polar symptoms while I was living there except for her drinking. Did she get crabby? Sure, they said her whole family was that way. 

I have a friend who has a bi-polar sister. She takes her meds only before she goes to sleep and before that  she can really drive you nuts. She appears to me to be a really self-centered person, who doesn't really want to control her behaviour. She controls the whole household, and is allowed to, just to keep the peace.  Her behavior to me seems like it should be controllable, but she is not able to sleep without meds, and would, of course, lose her sanity after a few days of this.

So, I guess I'm asking, how could inability to sleep be a learned behavior?

[editor]

Well, I don't think that post-partum disorders are learned from one's parents. I didn't know that it existed before it happened to me.

I don't think that the inability to sleep in a manic phase of PP disorder is a "learned" behavior, either. My mother didn't have any obvious bi-polar symptoms while I was living there except for her drinking. Did she get crabby? Sure, they said her whole family was that way. 

I have a friend who has a bi-polar sister. She takes her meds only before she goes to sleep and before that  she can really drive you nuts. She appears to me to be a really self-centered person, who doesn't really want to control her behaviour. She controls the whole household, and is allowed to, just to keep the peace.  Her behavior to me seems like it should be controllable, but she is not able to sleep without meds, and would, of course, lose her sanity after a few days of this.

So, I guess I'm asking, how could inability to sleep be a learned behavior?

Ah..

It's not.  But if a person has trouble sleeping, and gets a diagnosis, and takes meds, and goes to classes, and "learns" that they have a mental illness, and arranges their life like a mentally ill person, and take on that identity....it becomes learned.  Not sleeping makes it worse, and believing you are mentally ill makes it hard to sleep....

Suzie slept, and the hormones settled down.  She's not mentally ill, but she sure could have been if we decided to buy the idea.

Brent

[Recovering Saint]

Brent

God loves you and me and Lenore for who we are. I know you believe you are trying to help but you are ignorant of some things as are all of us. Nobody except GG knows everything. If you really love Lenore have a dialogue and don't assume you have the answers.

I know what I am talking about because the Assembly was full of know it alls and I learned how to become one too. Great good it did me. Now unlike GG I REALLY DO KNOW THAT THE MORE I LIVE THE LESS I REALLY KNOW. GG used to say it but he NEVER really showed it to us. You said don't hang around people who are a bad example well we learned the Bible but we also learned mean spirited self righteous know it all surperiority from GG.

Lord forgive me I don't want to be that way anymore and am trying desperately to put that behind me and I think you may need to look in the mirror.

I know you really care and that is why I DON'T DESPISE YOU and even if you didn't care I should love you. I know you are doing what you believe is best and for that reason I respect you.

I do not invalidate your experience and knowledge I just say that your understanding is not complete.

Lenore needs our prayers.

Hugh

[M2]

Ok...I understand that YES-there are people with one arm who can work, people who are deaf can work, etc...however, that doesn't necessarily mean that people suffering from mental illness can work too.  There ARE people with mental illness who can and do work, and I applaude them.  But there is also that handful of people who can not.  Who are we to judge another?

I will work when I am mentally stable enough to work.  I have not been "tooting my own horn".  The decisions concerning my health are recommended by a doctor with whom I have worked closely with for over three years.  Trust me-this man, a trained professional, could easily see if I were "faking it" or not!

I used to be one of those people that got mad because I was working and others were on assistance.  Although there are some who abuse the system, not everyone does.  Research DOES back this up!

Hi Eulaha,

Yes, I agree that circumstances get people into situations that they would be better off not being in.  Though people end up on welfare, it is still best to work towards being self-sufficient, do you agree??

I do not believe that this discussion was meant to be 'all about Lenore'.  Lenore turned it that way when she took Brent's honest opinion personally.  The winds of doctrine started blowing and I was tossed back and forth agreeing with both sides of the discussion.

Here's a 'hypothetical' situation.  2 mums each with 3-4 kids.  Mum1's husband is struggling with depression, while Mum2's is on the ball and on board.  Mum1 has this woe is me attitude, I have little kids, I can't do this, I can't ... whine whine whine even when others step up to help her.  Mum2 does not use her little kids as an excuse though sometimes, because of them, she is unable to do whatever.  WHY??  Why should Mum1 whine when she could have had the very same attitude as Mum2?

I think Brent is saying the same thing here, a lot depends on our attitude.  Are we going to allow our circumstances keep us in bondage?  Beth Moore is saying something similar in the quotes on the WoundedPilgrim thread.  God wants to heal us of all in our past that has kept us in bondage.  We need to recognize it and confess it and allow God to heal us.

To quote you and Lenore, "Who are we to judge another?" and lets turn the tables on that one.  Get the point.  This was meant to be an exchange of opinions on the topic of welfare based on biblical principles and other information.  It was not to be 'all about whoever' though each may share their stories and add information to the discussion.  When it gets down to " Who are we to judge another?" then maybe we are not listening to the message and are taken up with woe is me.

Moonflower had a profitable discussion last night with Brent because she did not get offended by Brent's opinion.  We all learned from it as a result.

Got to go for my 'Breaking Free' study.
God bless,
Marcia

[editor]

Brent

God loves you and me and Lenore for who we are. I know you believe you are trying to help but you are ignorant of some things as are all of us. Nobody except GG knows everything. If you really love Lenore have a dialogue and don't assume you have the answers.

I know what I am talking about because the Assembly was full of know it alls and I learned how to become one too. Great good it did me. Now unlike GG I REALLY DO KNOW THAT THE MORE I LIVE THE LESS I REALLY KNOW. GG used to say it but he NEVER really showed it to us. You said don't hang around people who are a bad example well we learned the Bible but we also learned mean spirited self righteous know it all surperiority from GG.

Lord forgive me I don't want to be that way anymore and am trying desperately to put that behind me and I think you may need to look in the mirror.

I know you really care and that is why I DON'T DESPISE YOU and even if you didn't care I should love you. I know you are doing what you believe is best and for that reason I respect you.

I do not invalidate your experience and knowledge I just say that your understanding is not complete.

Lenore needs our prayers.

Hugh

Thanks Hugh.

My understanding is certainly not complete, that's for sure. 

Here's a question for everyone: When a difficult topic, or a polarizing idea, or something that is going to offend someone comes up, at what point do we stop talking about it for the sake of politeness?

Everyone says I should have spoken to Lenore in private...we'll, I wasn't even talking to her in the first place.  Has anyone bothered to tell her that her posts about me aren't so great?  Nope, didn't think so, because as the "weak" one, she has a different set of rules to play by.

Now, I'm not talking about Lenore here.  If anything, I'm talking about people I know who have ovecome mental illness and depression, and why some do and some don't.

I know that it makes people uncomfortable, none more so than Lenore.  So, at what point should we stop talking about something in order to preserve the comfort of someone?

Brent   

[outdeep]

Here's a question for everyone: When a difficult topic, or a polarizing idea, or something that is going to offend someone comes up, at what point do we stop talking about it for the sake of politeness?

Everyone says I should have spoken to Lenore in private...we'll, I wasn't even talking to her in the first place.  Has anyone bothered to tell her that her posts about me aren't so great?  Nope, didn't think so, because as the "weak" one, she has a different set of rules to play by.

Cut the BS, Brent.  You're smart enough to figure out how to handle the situation without running her over with a steamroller.  Your like the bully who broke the retarded kid's nose because the retarded kid called him a name.  Grow up.

[editor]

Cut the BS, Brent.  You're smart enough to figure out how to handle the situation without running her over with a steamroller.  Your like the bully who broke the retarded kid's nose because the retarded kid called him a name.  Grow up.

Tell me then,

Should I have just ignored it and stopped?  I know that's what you would have done.

Now, you're addressing me personally.  I am getting uncomfortable.  I think you should stop.  I don't like it, it stresses me out.

Who are you to judge me?

Brent

[moonflower2]

Hi Eulaha,


Moonflower had a profitable discussion last night with Brent because she did not get offended by Brent's opinion.  We all learned from it as a result.

Marcia

That's because I'm a groupie. Brent accepts tithes, too.

[vernecarty]

Cut the BS, Brent.  You're smart enough to figure out how to handle the situation without running her over with a steamroller.  Your like the bully who broke the retarded kid's nose because the retarded kid called him a name.  Grow up.

It is difficult to know just how brutal one can legitmately be in dealing with chronic issues that stem from folks trapped by a wrong way of thinking...
I remember one of the disciples was referred to as "Satan" because he made a really stupid statment.
We don't always  know the real morivation behind what others do.
We can however, always observe the results.
While all of the results may not be immediately obvious, I think it is smart to gauge the effectiveness of what one is doing by constantly assessing the results that it produces...we all know one way insanity is defined.
This is the essence of intelligence,  both spiritual and otherwise...
Verne
p.s I can't help, in reflecting on insanity, but chuckle at the person who apparently spends all their time on the BB giving me negative points...I trust the results are satisfactory..?.or perhaps this individual is still expecting the same action to produce different outcomes...? I am not that important...really... 

[editor]

Cut the BS, Brent.  You're smart enough to figure out how to handle the situation without running her over with a steamroller.  Your like the bully who broke the retarded kid's nose because the retarded kid called him a name.  Grow up.

I didn't have time to respond to this earlier, in the way I wanted to.  I was hoping someone would say something like this!  Thanks Dave!

I don't mind being called a bully, because I know I'm not one.  I want people to stand up to me, I invite it, and I don' mind being knocked down by my betters.  That's not bullying, that's boxing, or wrestling.  My boys spend their days slamming their best friends into the mat, and they like eachother just fine.  It's cool!

The part that I want to comment on is how Dave refers to the other party as "retarded."  I'm the big fat, mean bully, and the other party is "retarded."

That's the whole problem.  Rhetorically speaking, people on welfare, depressed, mentally ill...they have all been taught that they are substandard, and we have been encouraged to treat them as such in the name of compassion.

The other party, according to Dave, isn't my equal.  They are substandard....retarded.  They should not be expected to act otherwise, they are broken and can't be fixed, they'll never amount to anything, and the compassionate thing to do is to recognize that, treat them as such, and tell 'em their OK just the way they are.

I think that's sick and twisted, not to mention insulting.  They need to learn that they are worth something, that they can do it, and that they don't have to stay "retarded."

Moonie, Suzie, Rebecca....they did it. They aren't retarded, although they could have been if they chose to listen!

Here's something I said a while back on this thread that seemed to escape scrutiny:

This really makes me sick.  I think some of you have a serious screw loose.  You act as if Lenore is retarded, or substandard as a person, and it disgusts me.  Does she get a pass for totally misreading me and calling me Hitler?  Yes!  Why? Because she is stupid?  I have no idea, and I don't think she's stupid, but apparently several of you must.

We all have to work at different occupations.  We talk about how people need to be held accountable for the things they do.  However, I guess Lenore needn't worry.  She is so weak and sensitive.  She should be able to do whatever she wants, go bowling, drink coffee, take gourmet cooking classes, do yoga, build self-esteem and complain about how hard it is to be on welfare.

It's OK for her to act this way, because she's substandard.  She hasn't the skills necessary to build a hamburger, or stuff envelopes.  She's just substandard.

What a bunch of post masticated bovine ruminant!  What cruel, sick, nasty people you are!      What have you done for her, other than to re-inforce the horrible conclusions she has drawn about herself?  I bet none of you have given her a dime, or done one thing to help her out, except perhaps Marcia.

I'll adopt your sick, cruel, and debasing ideas for a moment:

Lenore, you should just take it easy and recover.  Sleep if you need to, go to classes, do whatever makes you feel better.  If something bothers you, learn to shut it out and just be at peace.  If you NEVER get to a point where you can work, or do anything, don't worry.  God has a pupose for you, but you're so small and weak, so He only has a tiny little purpose.  You won't ever do anything great in life.  Just get through one day at a time.  Don't take any risks, whatever you do.  A person like yourself is just not smart enough, tough enough, or determined enough to embark on any great adventure in life.

Live on a single level house...(no stairs to fall down that way)  take medicine so you are happy at all times, and do whatever seems nice.  Don't plan too far out in the future, because you know that there are always reasons why you can't do things better people do.  You aren't good enough, so don't try.  God Bless You! 

Lenore, I don't believe any of that about you.  I don't think you're stupid, or less capable than anyone else.  You need to give yourself a try and don't listen to these freaks.  Their advice, if followed, would have you in diapers before long.  You are a child of God, and you are made whole in Him.  Start acting like it!

Brent

[CAGirl]

Hey everyone! Slow down here. Apparently Brent is wrong and I am retarded cause your all moving too fast for me.

I don’t know how yall stick those quotes in so I hope you can follow me here.
“Cut the BS, Brent. You're smart enough to figure out how to handle the situation without running her over with a steamroller. Your like the bully who broke the retarded kid's nose because the retarded kid called him a name. Grow up.”

Dave, did you just compare poor Lenore with a retarded kid?? lol sorry but that got me.

I just wanted to put this out there. I didn’t mention my “mental illness” as an excuse for anything. My Bi-polar is very real, genetic or not, and something I deal with every day. But it’s the way I look at it that makes the difference. I treat it like a broken arm in a cast. I have to learn to function with the case on. If I’m careful one day I will heal (contrary to what the doctors say). I feel sad when I see or hear about others with “mental illness” who are living like it’s a peg leg. It just bugs me that I can’t grab there shoulder and say “Snap out of this! Come on. Get on your feet and move! It’s the only way.” I’ll just say it’s incredibly frustrating.

Moon,
   I’m sorry about your mom. I’ve been there too and  (thank God) was unsuccessful. As far as there being levels of bi-polar? Totally. If you are depressed every day of your life and then have one manic episode you are technically bi-polar. Some are manic most of the time and some depressed. In my case I swing a lot. Up and down up and down. What a ride.

Brent,
   I remember when Suzie was going threw that stuff. I could tell it was hard on her. But I’m glad she didn’t give in. I take meds but will NOT touch them if the effects are to strong. I have stacks of ex meds I was on but won't take. It is possible to get the right med to help you without feeling “Drugged” .

[editor]

Hey everyone! Slow down here. Apparently Brent is wrong and I am retarded cause your all moving too fast for me.

I don’t know how yall stick those quotes in so I hope you can follow me here.
“Cut the BS, Brent. You're smart enough to figure out how to handle the situation without running her over with a steamroller. Your like the bully who broke the retarded kid's nose because the retarded kid called him a name. Grow up.”

Dave, did you just compare poor Lenore with a retarded kid?? lol sorry but that got me.

I just wanted to put this out there. I didn’t mention my “mental illness” as an excuse for anything. My Bi-polar is very real, genetic or not, and something I deal with every day. But it’s the way I look at it that makes the difference. I treat it like a broken arm in a cast. I have to learn to function with the case on. If I’m careful one day I will heal (contrary to what the doctors say). I feel sad when I see or hear about others with “mental illness” who are living like it’s a peg leg. It just bugs me that I can’t grab there shoulder and say “Snap out of this! Come on. Get on your feet and move! It’s the only way.” I’ll just say it’s incredibly frustrating.

Moon,
   I’m sorry about your mom. I’ve been there too and  (thank God) was unsuccessful. As far as there being levels of bi-polar? Totally. If you are depressed every day of your life and then have one manic episode you are technically bi-polar. Some are manic most of the time and some depressed. In my case I swing a lot. Up and down up and down. What a ride.

Brent,
   I remember when Suzie was going threw that stuff. I could tell it was hard on her. But I’m glad she didn’t give in. I take meds but will NOT touch them if the effects are to strong. I have stacks of ex meds I was on but won't take. It is possible to get the right med to help you without feeling “Drugged” .

A few observations,

Sondra's suggestion to use a "normal" account is a good one. I think I'll do that.

Rebecca, what you are describing is a real, chemical/hormonal imbalance in your body.  It's a physical ailment that has all sorts of implications.  You deal with it on the physical level with meds, but the most important thing you have done is to learn to function with it.

Had you decided to play the part, you could easily have been a total disaster.  Instead, you make a few adustments and get on with life.  It sounds like you're doing great. Keep it up!

We are told that we should encourage one another, comfort, exhort, rebuke, admonish, etc.  Different approaches for different situations.

I think many of us have no problem telling it straight to someone who was involved in supporting GG, or committing spiritual abuse.  At one time, we would have thought doing so was being the mouthpiece of Satan, but now we know better.

In the same manner, many of us don't understand that certain people don't need comfort and encouragement, they need admonishment and rebuke.  I'm NOT speaking of Lenore, or anyone in particular, but to the general population of able bodied christians who are on welfare.

I think it's wrong to allow these people to ingest the false, powerless image they are being fed by their "supporters."  It's insulting to them, and it only "embiggins" the negative image they have of themselves.  What kind of Gospel is that? Paul was clear about his sort of thing in his discourse about who is a true widow, and how the others should be treated.  Even without that guidance, how good is it for someone to be dependent on welfare, especially when they don't need to be?

We have right here on this board people who have fought this monster and have beaten it.  Pay attention to what they have to say.

The last thing I want to point out is the "retarded" illustration by Dave.  Dave is an honest, straight shooting guy, and I hope he tells us what exactly he was thinking by using that particular illustration.  I don't think it was a slip of the tongue, because Dave is a very bright guy. I think the word "retarded" came out because it accurately reflects certain conclusions he has.

Here's what I think, but I defer to him to set the record straight.  I don't want to put thoughts in his head that weren't there.

I think that deep down inside, he sees Lenore as someone who has problems so big that there isn't much hope for her.  He sees her as being so fragile that she'll break with almost any pressure applied to her, and that the best thing to do is to avoid that. Moving past this fragility is unlikely and messy, and isn't worth it. He pities her, but at the same time doesn't expect much from her and can't ever imagine her doing anything other than coping day to day.  He see's her as not being very smart, and being totally outclassed and overpowered by a person like me.

This last sentence is especially troubling, because he doesn't have a very high opinion of me, which means his opinion of Lenore must be really low.

Dave, if you are reading, please set the record straight.  I'm just sharing my interpretation, based on my observations of how many, many christians treat folks like Lenore.  I used the word retarded before you did, which I find interesting.

I see Lenore as being pretty sharp.  I think if she just got out and tried her new wings she might find out she can fly. 

Brent

[M2]

Al, and Lenore,

My serious non-sarcastic opinion.

You have shared so many posts about how the Lord is everything and how He is the answer to every dilemna, and how He has shown you so many wonderful truths through the 40 days of purpose driven life and the clasees you teach.  Do you think that He is now giving you the opportunity to apply some of those truths?  What will it be when the chips are down?  Or when the going gets tough, what is it going to be?

There is a season for everything....

Your friend in Christ,
Marcia

[Recovering Saint]

Thanks Hugh.

My understanding is certainly not complete, that's for sure.

Here's a question for everyone: When a difficult topic, or a polarizing idea, or something that is going to offend someone comes up, at what point do we stop talking about it for the sake of politeness?

Everyone says I should have spoken to Lenore in private...we'll, I wasn't even talking to her in the first place. Has anyone bothered to tell her that her posts about me aren't so great? Nope, didn't think so, because as the "weak" one, she has a different set of rules to play by.

Now, I'm not talking about Lenore here. If anything, I'm talking about people I know who have ovecome mental illness and depression, and why some do and some don't.

I know that it makes people uncomfortable, none more so than Lenore. So, at what point should we stop talking about something in order to preserve the comfort of someone?

Brent

Brent 

I have no idea why Lenore got in the middle but she did. I did mention that she should step back and consider what applies and take the rest to the Lord. Why because after seeing you on the BB I know you have a flamboyant style and that gets people involved which is good. Lenore took it personally though and it has hurt.

I know you did not mean to hurt but rather to help and I do know that faithful are the wounds of a friend. I think both you and Lenore aren't talking on the same wavelength.

I for one am just as annoyed as you when someone MILKS the system. I however don't always know the back story to be able to properly discern when someone is really in need and when they are taking me for a ride.

I think that is why I trust a professional or some counselor who has more experience than me. You are right though that to coddle some is hurting them but I think Lenore needs time to see your side and you need time to ask about her side. It is unfortunate that now it is a cleanup operation.

As to should you talk about Welfare in a generic sense or any other controversial topic YES. I enjoy your candor and have learned allot from it.

So I think an olive branch for LENORE even though you did not really start it as you said and I agree but it would open the communication Lenore you need to accept it and get talking.

Your unofficial moderator hopefully

Hugh

[BAT]

Brent 

I have no idea why Lenore got in the middle but she did. I did mention that she should step back and consider what applies and take the rest to the Lord. Why because after seeing you on the BB I know you have a flamboyant style and that gets people involved which is good. Lenore took it personally though and it has hurt.

I know you did not mean to hurt but rather to help and I do know that faithful are the wounds of a friend. I think both you and Lenore aren't talking on the same wavelength.

I for one am just as annoyed as you when someone MILKS the system. I however don't always know the back story to be able to properly discern when someone is really in need and when they are taking me for a ride.

I think that is why I trust a professional or some counselor who has more experience than me. You are right though that to coddle some is hurting them but I think Lenore needs time to see your side and you need time to ask about her side. It is unfortunate that now it is a cleanup operation.

As to should you talk about Welfare in a generic sense or any other controversial topic YES. I enjoy your candor and have learned allot from it.

So I think an olive branch for LENORE even though you did not really start it as you said and I agree but it would open the communication Lenore you need to accept it and get talking.

Your unofficial moderator hopefully

Hugh

Hi Hugh

this is the new me.  No red letters on this screen name, but same meek, gently spirit behind every post.

Lenore sent me an email, and let's just say she's not ready to receive an olive branch just yet.  I know she will be in time, no doubt about it.

The plain fact is that some people need help, and that's OK.  However, to me that means helping them heal, and not letting them get away with something negative.

I maintain that Lenore has far more on the ball than she realizes, and she could surprise herself if she tried.  That is going to be the hard part, she must try.

Brent