Trouble Brewing at Focus on the Family

[vernecarty]

   Matthew 9:10 - And as he sat at table in the house, behold, many tax collectors and sinners came and sat down with Jesus and his disciples.   

Locking out persons based on their "lifesyle choice" wasn't Jesus' way.  He sat down with them.

Yes He did, and told then in no uncertain terms that they needed to repent or face the consequences.

I no longer believe that homosexuals choose to be the way they are.  I believe they are programmed that way, due to chemical imbalances.

This could be the case. Do you have any data to support your belief?

And...just because a person is homosexual doesn't mean that they don't love the Lord!! 

And just because a person is an adulterer does not mean that they do not love the Lord either. David was and did. We are talking about a person's view of their conduct Eulaha and that ought to  be obvious to you.
Homosexuals insist that what they do cannot and should not be viewed as sinful, and that Christians must accept them and  their behaviour.

I know my beliefs are not very popular, especially among Christians.  But this is the way I feel.  I have better things to do with my time than to target the homosexual population...

Popularity has nothing to do with it. The issue is whether we as Christians are prepared to stand for what God's Word clearly says about the matter. The real question is who is targeting whom, don'cha think?
Verne

[night owl]

Take your NIV and carefully check every Biblical reference you can find to sexual conduct.

Whoah! Verne, you rascal! You knew I had one!  j/k

Actually, I had always figured that the Old Testament accounts of Noah and his son Ham, Sodom and Gomorrah, and the New Testament comments made by the Apostle Paul about homosexuality were enough to convince me that it is a sin. I'll have to sit down with my NIV and take a look!

P.S. I worked for Focus one summer 'way back in the early '80's. Dobson is a godly man with a tremendous amount of integrity. A rare breed.

[vernecarty]

Whoah! Verne, you rascal! You knew I had one!  j/k

Actually, I had always figured that the Old Testament accounts of Noah and his son Ham, Sodom and Gomorrah, and the New Testament comments made by the Apostle Paul about homosexuality were enough to convince me that it is a sin. I'll have to sit down with my NIV and take a look!

 

P.S. I worked for Focus one summer 'way back in the early '80's. Dobson is a godly man with a tremendous amount of integrity. A rare breed.

He is a class act. For this coalition to attack a man like Dobson tells us these folks think that Christians can be had.
I have been quite surprised by how so many believers are totally misinformed on the sponge-bob incident and how they have allowed the gay lobby to use it to portray Dobson in a bad light. That's why the Bible calls us sheep I guess...
Verne

[Recovering Saint]

I no longer believe that homosexuals choose to be the way they are.  I believe they are programmed that way, due to chemical imbalances.

And...just because a person is homosexual doesn't mean that they don't love the Lord!!

Eulaha

How did you come to these conclusions?

Hugh 

[outdeep]

I know my beliefs are not very popular, especially among Christians.  But this is the way I feel.  I have better things to do with my time than to target the homosexual population...

I don't think it is fair to say that Christians sat down and decided to target the homosexual position.  I think it was more of a defense mechanism.  Homosexual groups, more than any other "sin classification" has attempted to force their ways into groups in order to demand acceptance.  Homosexuals are free to start a Rainbow Scouts groups, but instead seek to destroy the Boy Scouts because the latter does not accept their value system.

Thieves, adulterors, unfaithful, gossips, murders do not form coalition groups in order to change the doctrinal position of churches in order to gain acceptance.  But, homosexuals do.  When the church resists, it is labeled as intolerant.  The only way that the church can avoid being name-called intolerant is to abandon historical doctrine and a literal understanding of the Bible. 

Sure, there are bigoted Christians, but I don't think that is the real root of the problem.

[vernecarty]

It's nobody's business what someone else chooses to do in the privacy of their own homes-no matter how "sinful" it is.

The privacy of their own homes huh?
It sure is a nice thought.
I wonder what you would then call the planned march on the headquarters of Focus on the Family?
What is going to be so "private" about that display?
Do you know what they are strenuously attempting to have taught to our children in schools everywhere?
You must be the only person in America that still believes that gays are still in the closet!  

It's really interesting that so-called Christians are supposed to love everyone, and yet they are the most intolerant people on the face of the earth.  Sad, really sad.

 I can only speak for myself Eulaha and I do think we Christians sometimes do have a tendency to be judgmental and self-righteous. Considering however what your Bible teaches you and what is at stake in this entire debate, your attitude strikes me as somewhat cavalier.
Verne

[night owl]

But, I do love them! If God so loved the world that He gave His only son, AND also if while I was yet a sinner, he sent Christ to die for me, then I'm gonna love my neighbor too (literally; there's a gay couple who live down the street) because if it's good enough for God, it's good enough for me. Which means, I will wave at them when they are out walking their dog; I will chat with them when they are sitting on their front porch; I would come to their aid if I saw them sick or injured (like the hated Samaritan), and they even wave back at me on Sunday mornings when they see me leave for church all dressed up carrying my Bible. But would I go out clubbing with them? No. It's kind of like the (good) advice I've been given here about my brother. I will invite him over, we will go out together, he will be invited to family functions, I will love him to death. But would I ever go with him to another Assembly meeting? I realize that the comparison here isn't exact, but I would still have to say No (but in this case it also might depend on the circumstances). I also know enough people who have been delivered from the gay lifestyle who say that it's definitely NOT God's best for us. Love the sinner, hate the sin.

[outdeep]

I no longer believe that homosexuals choose to be the way they are.  I believe they are programmed that way, due to chemical imbalances.

I would agree that homosexuals probably do indeed feel as if they were born with that disposition and do not have control over their sexual desires.  However, I don't think that homosexuals have a "corner" on this problem.  Rather, it better understood within the larger context of the 1960's sexual revolution.

Many men, addicted to porn feel as if their urges are unstoppable.  Most books on teens today concede that it is virtually impossible to keep a typical teenager from having sex.  Why?  Because preoccupation with sex and the availability of sex has become so predominant today there is much less tendency (and help in) restraining onself.  As a result, we have a society with sexual expression out of control.

I believe that God gave us the powerful beast of sexual energy in order to propogate society and to remain committed to our spouse.  But, when this beast gets let out of the cage, so to speak, it quickly gets out of control.  That is the society we live in today.

In the past, this sexual beast was constrained better in the cage because of society's prohibitions.  If you wanted to act out sexually, you had to go to a seedy part of town and risk being seen by your neighbor.  That was enough to keep decent folks decent.  Today, with over preoccupation-with-sex available on TV, internet, political discussions, George's study, magazines, and home videos, acting out sexually is now available to the masses with little help for restraint.  

So, the problem is not with whether or not homosexuals are born that way or not.   Rather, it is the bigger problem of sex out of control.  The beast is out of the cage and I doubt that it can be put back in unless there is some sort of national disaster.

[night owl]

I've heard Dobson suggest that homosexuality isn't so much a sex issue as a love issue, and the perverted lengths men and women are willing to go to get it.

(This post was made within minutes of Dave's post so it appears it's in response to what you said Dave, but it's not - I actually hadn't seen what you wrote until after I clicked on "post." I totally agree with what you have to say - sex in our society is totally out of control.)

[vernecarty]

What do you think would have happened if some uncircumcised Phillistine charged into the tabernacle on the day of atonement, dragging his male lover right into the Holy of Holies and demanding that Aaron the high priest perform a wedding ceremony to unite them in holy matrimony? Do you think he would have even gotten into the camp, much less anywhere near the tabernacle?
Some will argue that the analogy is strained at best, but is it?
We are told clearly in Scripture that the death of Christ on the cross resulted in the veil in the temple being rent from top to bottom, sginaling clear and unfettered access into the very presence of the Most High through His Son.
The fact that we Christians must face, and face unflinchingly, is that we have lived our lives in such a way, both privately and before the watching world, as to cause the most  depraved of sinners to treat the God we serve with absolute contempt.
There was a time when this kind of conduct would not be even discussed in polite society, but now you have even some Christians making the case that people who practice such things should occupy places of ministry in the Church.
The reason the church is fighting the present battle is because of the glaring absence of holiness among the ranks. I include myself in this indictment.
Do you think this kind of conduct could or would take place in the presence of Almighty God?
What does the fact that it is happening in the very place where we proclaim Jesus Christ, Lord of heaven and earth tell you about the power of His presence or lack therof in the lives of His own?
I think we need to do some soul-searching. I think many of us need to repent.
Verne

p.s. Dave this is amazing! I changed the title and made this post at the same time you were posting and honestly did not see what you said until I posted it so it also is not a direct reply to your post. I concur with what you stated- that there is a general lack of sexual restraint in society today, even among believers!
(The divorce and remarriage  rate among Christians tells the sad story)

[al Hartman]

It's really interesting that so-called Christians are supposed to love everyone, and yet they are the most intolerant people on the face of the earth.  Sad, really sad.

This is the argument most commonly used by the "tolerant" humanist whatever-you-choose-to-believe-is-OK folks.  They, thinking themselves to be wiser than God, determine that each of us is entitled to arrive at our own conclusions about the origin, purpose and goal of life, and that the true nature of "god" varies from person to person.  Therefore, they profess to be "tolerant" of all beliefs.  Strangely, they are not only intolerant of, but actively hostile toward any and all who believe that Christ alone is the way to God.  They are intolerant of all who believe in the existence of sin, much more of those who profess the need of salvation and a Savior.

There is no excusing Christians who consider homosexuals to be less than human, less worthy of redemption than are other sinners.  That is indeed sad.  But sadder far is the case of those who, having heard the good news of God's mercy and grace to sinners, reject it in favor of their chosen lifestyle.

For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh: (For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds;)  2 Cor10:3,4

Please take some time to pray with your families daily for God's covering particularly on Dr. James Dobson and the focus on the family ministry. This contest will be decided in the secret places...make no mistake about it folks...
Verne

Verne's response (above, with added highlighting by moi) was the first, and most crucial reply to the article that started this thread.  Our discussions here are important in clarifying the truth of the situation, but will have little bearing upon the upcoming showdown, except as they motivate us to pray.  Even the fact, as has been pointed below, that Dr. Dobson has conducted himself wisely and well in the past is no guarantee that he will know what to do in this instance.  You can be certain that he and those close to him are praying their hearts out regarding what is to come.  So should we labor in prayer on their behalf, for the sake of God's purpose to be accomplished in all that takes place...

al

[M2]

Some general comments.

It is interesting to note that the 'problem' of homosexuality is never addressed by the Lord.  The NT passages re. homosexuality are translated as such in the newer translations (maybe except the NIV).  Also, even as eunuchs are born with no sexual drive, possibly homosexuals are born with no 'attraction' to members of the opposite sex.  However, homosexual activity is clearly labelled as perversion in the OT along with adultery and other sins.

Though the Lord Jesus associated with the sinners, He never condoned their sin.  e.g. Zacchaeus found salvation and repented from his unfair practice of collecting more taxes than he should.

Marcia

[moonflower2]

This is quite interesting.

Article by Dr. Cameron at Family Research Institute: What Causes Homosexual Desire and Can it Be Changed?

http://www.biblebelievers.com/Cameron3.html

[vernecarty]

This is quite interesting.

Article by Dr. Cameron at Family Research Institute: What Causes Homosexual Desire and Can it Be Changed?

http://www.biblebelievers.com/Cameron3.html

Good article Moonflower thanks for the link. Nobody wants to talk about it but the fact that active recruitment is something that takes place by older practicing homosexuals is undeniable. The incredible push to expose young people to the idea that this lifestyle is normative has to do with more than mere acceptance. I find it difficult, considering the nature of what we are dealing with, how the Christian response to this can be anything other than militant.
I did not say violent.
I said militant. This is a conflict with huge stake and requires careful attention to objective, strategy and execution. If you Christians think that this is not what the other side is doing you will loose the war. In fact you may have already lost it, unless God intervenes.
Those of you talking accommodation have no idea what you are up against.
Verne

[al Hartman]

Good article Moonflower thanks for the link. Nobody wants to talk about it but the fact that active recruitment is something that takes place by older practicing homosexuals is undeniable. The incredible push to expose young people to the idea that this lifestyle is normative has to do with more than mere acceptance. I find it difficult, considering the nature of what we are dealing with, how the Christian response to this can be anything other than militant.
I did not say violent.
I said militant. This is a conflict with huge stake and requires careful attention to objective, strategy and execution. If you Christians think that this is not what the other side is doing you will loose the war. In fact you may have already lost it, unless God intervenes.
Those of you talking accommodation have no idea what you are up against.
Verne

Many, and one must believe that includes many Christians, surely do have no idea.  Many people are not directly in the path of the homosexual agenda juggernaut and probably regard it as just another news item in an age of tabloid exaggerations of every sort...

For others a different dilemma looms:  we have family members, neighbors, friends and work associates who are homosexual, but seem otherwise "normal'-- they are friendly, kind, helpful, basically "good"-seeming people.  Cathy and I have at least two dear family members in this category, and we have both worked with several such folk, and have some as neighbors.

I suggest two perspectives that both need open-eyed viewing:

First, the "good" homosexuals-- those who are not on a mission to recruit others to their practices.  They need not be counted as any worse enemies than other unbelievers.  After all, the gospel of Christ is not to be doled out according to the type and character of the sins committed-- the issue is that all have sinned, and that Christ died to take away our sins.  Not every murderer or thief or liar wants to make converts-- neither does every homosexual.  Tell them of Jesus, the Mighty to save.  You may be surprised at their receptiveness.

Second, there is a militant movement afoot to push an agenda of homosexuality, not only universal acceptance, but a Borg-like desire to incorporate as many souls as possible into their lifestyle "collective."  There are several ideas about their motivation.  My personal thinking is that there is a spiritual factor-- a satanic- or demonic-influenced state of mind that despises and curses God and flies in the face of all that is good and wholesome.

We can glibly say, "Love the sinner and hate the sin."  But we must draw a line by which to determine what we will tolerate of the sinner who may yet be saved and what we will not tolerate in the behavior of those in whom sin and sinner have become indistinguishable from one another.  We must do all we can within the realm of God's grace, but having done all, we must stand for God and His values and say to the evil as Gandalf did, "You shall not pass!"

Now I have invoked both the crew of the USS Enterprise and the Fellowship of the Ring as illustrations, but the issue is Jesus Christ and Him crucified.  He alone can give us wisdom to discern the right choices and strength to carry them out, and He will for our asking Him.  However the issue of homosexuality may have affected us thus far, we must see it as a most serious factor in our society and even in the church, and prepare ourselves to fulfill whatever role the Lord may assign us to.

al