Speaking of Bob Dylan

[Jem]

DaveM,

Hang in there. Dylan is excellent, but that is just MHO.

Tom,

It seems as if you don't LIKE  something it is "silly." Therefore you must create theories to make anyone who appreciates some truth in a Dylan song--infused with a great melody--as being a mere crowd-follower. Every once in awhile the crowd is right. If you don't enjoy abstract art go surround yourself with Kincaids, why make fun of those who do?

There is some truth to what you say about Boomers going all nostalgic on their music. My mom does this with her 40s and 50s music. But there were some great songs from that era. And there were some teriffic songs from the 60s and 70s. That is why my kids listen to some Credence, Doobies, Beatles, Zepplin.

Just because people dance to music does not make it pagan in some way. It is an expression of collective joy that the assembly did its best to quash that. That's why we dance at weddings.

Dylan himself makes fun of the way he sings "like a wounded coyote," but he is a good poet and tune master. What is it about his craft that you find so objectionable?

[outdeep]

Dylan himself makes fun of the way he sings "like a wounded coyote," but he is a good poet and tune master. What is it about his craft that you find so objectionable?

One of the funniest acts I saw was when a local group called "Riders in the Sky" were singing Roudolf the Red Nosed Raindeer.  One of the guys said, "Hey!  Let's sing it like Bob Dylan".  The rest was hysterical.

Do you think his off-voice was part of his statement?  Much of modern art (paint splattered, etc.) was indeed a statement about the meaningless of man and the randomness of life.  Those of us who don't see life as random would see such a statement as silly but to the artist such as the "musician" John Cage, it was a very real and honest statement.

Since Mr. Dylan was against the establishment, government, Vietnam, etc. in the 1960's was his off-voice a way of saying "I'm going to break the social conventions of my parent's generation because I don't respect their conventions?"  Like many of the modern artists who could really actually paint if they wanted to, I suspect Mr. Dylan could sing right if he wanted to as well.

[Oscar]

DaveM,

Hang in there. Dylan is excellent, but that is just MHO.

Tom,

It seems as if you don't LIKE  something it is "silly." Therefore you must create theories to make anyone who appreciates some truth in a Dylan song--infused with a great melody--as being a mere crowd-follower. Every once in awhile the crowd is right. If you don't enjoy abstract art go surround yourself with Kincaids, why make fun of those who do?

There is some truth to what you say about Boomers going all nostalgic on their music. My mom does this with her 40s and 50s music. But there were some great songs from that era. And there were some teriffic songs from the 60s and 70s. That is why my kids listen to some Credence, Doobies, Beatles, Zepplin.

Just because people dance to music does not make it pagan in some way. It is an expression of collective joy that the assembly did its best to quash that. That's why we dance at weddings.

Dylan himself makes fun of the way he sings "like a wounded coyote," but he is a good poet and tune master. What is it about his craft that you find so objectionable?

Dave,

My original comments on Dylan's singng were attempts at humor.  That's what the little  :rofl:  guy was supposed to indicate.  My comment about Buddy Holley was also intended to be humorous.  The point was that I do the same thing about my own youth era's music.

Dave, I tend to think wholistically.  I relate what I see, read, and hear to the whole social context. What concerns me about so much of the music/rock concert/modern art scene is that it is all associated with our culture's general turn from rationality towards subjectivity and irrationality.

Great emotional experiences are part of what makes life worth living.  Loving someone, group experiences that bring out the best in people, appeals to compassion and concern, these are all good things.

But there is a downside to emotion as well.  Emotions are rarely a good basis for decisions.  If you doubt this, ask all the women who have experienced what it is like to be a pregnant unmarried teenager.  Worse, political demagogues have long known that people have this capacity and have exploited it.  Because emotion is mostly a reaction to sensory inputs, by manipulating the inputs, you can control what people 
think and then do.  The huge Nazi rallies at Nuremburg released the same type of emotions and group consciousness that you have described.

I am definitely NOT likening a Dylan concert to a Nazi rally.  Nor am I calling you a Nazi or anything like that.  I just cannot help being concerned with the future possibilities of a culture that has opened itself to this kind of manipulation by glorying in mindlessness.

Dave, I do have a tendency to critically analyze things and ideas that are presented to me.  I can see how you could read my posts about Dylan or modern art as making fun of you. I did not intend to personalize it though.

 While I am very critical of the overall phenomena, I also recognize the tremendous talent of many of the people involved in it.  I enjoy listening to some of the music of the 60's and 70's myself.

Think, for example, of the Beatles.  Their talent was undeniable.  Their music was wildly popular.  But along with all the enjoyment of their music there is still the ugly fact that they were highly influential in popularizing drug use among kids.

Tom Maddux

[Jem]

"My original comments on Dylan's singng were attempts at humor."

You know what's really funny is that as I was reading up the thread I thought, Oh my, DaveM likes Dylan, therefore Tom will make a joke about Dylan, probably dissing Dylan's whiny voice.

"Dave, I tend to think wholistically."

Isn't that a fancy way to say sweeping generalities.

"But there is a downside to emotion as well."

Really? Thanks for clearing that up. You know Tom, there is a downside to almost everything. Do your spend your day worrying about the flipside to everything?

"I am definitely NOT likening a Dylan concert to a Nazi rally."

Again, thanks for clearing that up because it certainly was how it was read up to that point. I simply asked you what you find objectionable to Dylan's craft as a poet and a song writer and suddenly we're all Nazi's in Nuremburg.

Sheesh, it's no wonder so few people post on here.

[outdeep]

"My original comments on Dylan's singng were attempts at humor."

You know what's really funny is that as I was reading up the thread I thought, Oh my, DaveM likes Dylan, therefore Tom will make a joke about Dylan, probably dissing Dylan's whiny voice.

"Dave, I tend to think wholistically."

Isn't that a fancy way to say sweeping generalities.

"But there is a downside to emotion as well."

Really? Thanks for clearing that up. You know Tom, there is a downside to almost everything. Do your spend your day worrying about the flipside to everything?

"I am definitely NOT likening a Dylan concert to a Nazi rally."

Again, thanks for clearing that up because it certainly was how it was read up to that point. I simply asked you what you find objectionable to Dylan's craft as a poet and a song writer and suddenly we're all Nazi's in Nuremburg.

Sheesh, it's no wonder so few people post on here.

Now, now, Jem let's not get nasty.  You have to admit that as good as Dylan might be, his odd way of singing (when he clearly could have sung harmoniously) does open himself up to jokes or at least puzzlement.

Looking at the big picture does not necessarily have to be "sweeping generalizations".  There are some folks who are good at working through specific details.  Others like to stand back and look at the general flow of things.  Francis Schaeffer was one who tended to look at the big picture and how it was affecting culture and the church.  He made quite similar conclusions as Tom concerning music and modern art and "non-rational experiences" in such discussions as his "line of despair" and "upper storey/lower storey" model etc.

I don't think most folks follow Dylan or any other musician because they sit down and think about the craft.  "I like Dylan because he uses complex chord structures combined with simple melody" or whatever is not something the average person think about.  While skill is usually important, many excellent musicians end up becoming insurance salesmen because they didn't get their break to make it into the "in" circle.  So the idea that folks follow Dylan to be "sophisiticated" is not a put down to Dylan but a truth about our culture.  We tend to like what is popular.

-Dave

[Joe Sperling]

Now, now, Jem let's not get nasty.  You have to admit that as good as Dylan might be, his odd way of singing (when he clearly could have sung harmoniously) does open himself up to jokes or at least puzzlement.

I have to agree. Dylan, as mentioned before, was able to sing clearly---he shows this definitely
on the song "Lay, Lady, Lay"---this is actually quite a beautiful song, and his voice is very clear and
in tune. Also on "Knock, Knock. Knockin' on Heaven's Door" he dispays the same smooth, clear and melodic voice. I have heard many people express surprise
when they realize Dylan sang those songs.  I believe he purposefully made his voice off-tune and whiny as a type of protest, as Dave. S. has mentioned.  Dylan's greatest talent was definitely his poetry, not his singing.

On one of Frank Zappa's albums there is a hilarious few moments where a "fake" Dylan starts whining and playing some off key notes on his harmonica. It was definitely meant to poke fun at Dylan, and his whiny offbeat voice.  But again, Dylan is someone people either love or hate, so there will always be arguments when the subject is brought up whether he was a "good singer or not". 

--Joe

[DavidM]

I've spent a lot of time meditating on this song. I think it is great advise to a young naive man/woman who is just starting out in life (in America!) I wish I would have heeded it when I was 20 years old!

   
Johnny's in the basement
Mixing up the medicine
I'm on the pavement
Thinking about the government
The man in the trench coat
Badge out, laid off
Says he's got a bad cough
Wants to get it paid off
Look out kid
It's something' you did
God knows when
But you're doin' it again
You better duck down the alley way
Lookin' for a new friend
The man in the coon-skin cap
In the big pen
Wants eleven dollar bills
You only got ten

Maggie comes fleet foot
Face full of black soot
Talkin' that the heat put
Plants in the bed but
The phone's tapped anyway
Maggie says that many say
They must bust in early May
Orders from the D. A.
Look out kid
Don't matter what you did
Walk on your tip toes
Don't try "No Doz"
Better stay away from those
That carry around a fire hose
Keep a clean nose
Watch the plain clothes
You don't need a weather man
To know which way the wind blows

Get sick, get well
Hang around a ink well
Ring bell, hard to tell
If anything is goin' to sell
Try hard, get barred
Get back, write braille
Get jailed, jump bail
Join the army, if you fail
Look out kid
You're gonna get hit
But users, cheaters
Six-time losers
Hang around the theaters
Girl by the whirlpool
Lookin' for a new fool
Don't follow leaders
Watch the parkin' meters

Ah get born, keep warm
Short pants, romance, learn to dance
Get dressed, get blessed
Try to be a success
Please her, please him, buy gifts
Don't steal, don't lift
Twenty years of schoolin'
And they put you on the day shift
Look out kid
They keep it all hid
Better jump down a manhole
Light yourself a candle
Don't wear sandals
Try to avoid the scandals
Don't wanna be a bum
You better chew gum
The pump don't work
'Cause the vandals took the handles

[DavidM]

"...Look out kid
Its somethin you did
God know when
but your doin it again..."


People will use God to lay a trip on you!

[DavidM]

"...Look out kid
You're gonna get hit
But users, cheaters..."


   Need I comment?  Its just a reality of life!

[DavidM]

"...Twenty years of schoolin'
And they put you on the day shift
Look out kid
They keep it all hid..."

While you are working hard for $10 an hour others are working easy getting rich off of you! If you want to understand the stock market the first thing you need to know is others controle it! You need to find out that inside information!

                     Dylan understood this!

[Joe Sperling]

While you are working hard for $10 an hour others are working easy getting rich off of you!
                     Dylan understood this!

Dylan: "Believe me, I do understand this!! When you make $10 an hour and you have to pay $17.95 for one of my CD's, you are never going to get rich! But someone has to get rich, so it may as well be me. So please keep on buyin' my music! I'll be thinkin' of you when I'm at the bank!" (off-key harmonica music fills the air)
 

[Oscar]

To My Fans,

I want to invite you all to attend my Austin City Limits concert on Saturday, September 11, 2007. 

The General Admission tickets are a real bargain at $262!   

For all of you $10 dollar an hour folks you will only have to work three days and two hours in order to experience 90 minutes of my glorious voice and deeply poetic lyrics.  I intend to sing several songs that expose how "the Man" is out to get us common folks and cheat us out of the luxurious life we all are entitled to. 

Here is a link where you can order the tickets.

http://www.coasttocoasttickets.com/buy/bobdylan_tickets.htm?pid=584122

PS, Remember that you will need to work a bit longer to earn enough to buy a ticket.  The advertised price does not include taxes, and of course your $10 per hour isn't what you get to take home after Social Security, State Disability, and so forth.

Four full days should do it.

Your brother in the great struggle against bourgoise society,

Bob Dylan

[DavidM]

  What makes Bob Dylan stand apart from the rest? It is his ability to recreate himself! He invented (faked?) his Woody Gutherie accent, style, moved from Minnesota to New York, walked from one coffee house to the next putting his hat out for tips! He became one of the leading folk singers of the early sixties. Yet just a few years later shocked the folk community with his creation of "Folk-Rock". (many people disowned him for this) During the early 80's his "Born-Again" period gospel music was acclaimed as his best work! But wait there's more! In the late 1990's he again burst on the scene with a whole new style of rhythm/blues/soul music with the top Grammy award winning album "Time Out of Mind" Today he is enjoying acclaim for his "Modern Times" album that was give a nod last year!


   What makes someone/something a classic? The fact that they endure! Today people still buy Beethoven, Bach, Mozart! Their work has the ability to speak to succeeding generations! While I was attending his concert I couldn't help but feel and tremendous respect from the audience! No matter how old he gets or how bad he sounds people were in awe of him! Maybe thats why I started this thread? Yet I feel like I have opened the door for people to disrespect him!  Why?  Don't you guys have any decency?

[moonflower2]

  What makes Bob Dylan stand apart from the rest? It is his ability to recreate himself!

Whoa there! The word "recreate" in my mind, evokes negative connotations, since it is said that Madonna "recreates" herself, which she does. She is a performer, while Bob Dylan was a talented writer, poet, and musician who performed

He invented (faked?) his Woody Gutherie accent,

He admired Guthrie and carried on his style

style, moved from Minnesota to New York, walked from one coffee house to the next putting his hat out for tips!

  The coffee houses were where the music action was at the time for those who had a mutual interest in that kind of music.

He became one of the leading folk singers of the early sixties. Yet just a few years later shocked the folk community with his creation of "Folk-Rock". (many people disowned him for this) During the early 80's his "Born-Again" period gospel music was acclaimed as his best work! But wait there's more! In the late 1990's he again burst on the scene with a whole new style of rhythm/blues/soul music with the top Grammy award winning album "Time Out of Mind" Today he is enjoying acclaim for his "Modern Times" album that was give a nod last year!

His music reflects where he was at that time of his life. He is a born-again Jewish Christian and his music reflected that time of his life.

   What makes someone/something a classic? The fact that they endure! Today people still buy Beethoven, Bach, Mozart! Their work has the ability to speak to succeeding generations! While I was attending his concert I couldn't help but feel and tremendous respect from the audience! No matter how old he gets or how bad he sounds people were in awe of him! Maybe thats why I started this thread? Yet I feel like I have opened the door for people to disrespect him!  Why?  Don't you guys have any decency?

We still admire someone who can express how we are feeling and like Tom mentioned, when we hear the old songs, we travel back in time to when they were first popular. And.....everyone has different opinions of what music should be like. Some people hate opera, but opera is really well-written music for talented singers.

Personally, I think you showed disrespect to Dylan when you claim he "recreates" himself.  Just my 2 cents.

[Joe Sperling]

No matter how old he gets or how bad he sounds people were in awe of him! Maybe thats why I started this thread? Yet I feel like I have opened the door for people to disrespect him!  Why?  Don't you guys have any decency?

David---

No disrespect to Dylan the poet---just having some fun.   When you made the statement about Dylan "understanding" the $10.00/hour working man, it caused me to laugh. Back in the 60's it was
cool to make fun of the "establishment" and "the man". The Beatles even had a song called
"Little Piggies" sneering at Capitalists. Yet, The Beatles quickly took the proceeds from that song and
many others and socked it in the bank just like all the other capitalist "white shirts" they were mocking. Dylan and many others were/are the
same way--- they sing about the plight of the poor and the horrendousness of "imperialism and capitalism"--yet write these very songs while they sit beside an olympic sized  pool behind their multi-million dollar mansions. Sting sings about the "plight of the rain forest" yet has a piano (made of wood) in every room of his 20 room mansion!!

So, no disrespect to Dylan's music---but he is just that---a musician and a poet. But he still lives the same lifestyle all famous stars live--and has no greater insight concerning the poor or suffering than any other man has.

P.S.  As an example. I was, and still am a great fan of that rock band "The Who". But that doesn't make them "Gods". Keith Moon, the drummer, was incredible!  But he lived one of the most debauched lifestyles imagineable and died of a drug overdose. He was a great drummer, but not anyone to be worshiped. I feel the
same about Dylan---great poet--but just a man.