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Author Topic: Welfare is Evil---and this is no myth  (Read 23602 times)
Eulaha L. Long
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« Reply #30 on: May 11, 2005, 08:08:01 am »

Brent, I'm glad you got a good work ethic.  That's commendable, and we would not need welfare if everybody was productive and healthy like you are.  One of my coworkers, who has 30-35% lung capacity, is on a motorized wheelchair with O2 tanks due to a horrible case of arthritis, has perhaps the strongest will to work among anybody I know--even though he's very wealthy and doesn't need to work.  That's great.  But what about the people that hit hard and are unable to pick fruit because they are too messed up to do anything?  Should they curl up and die or get a welfare check?  I recommend the latter, and that's why I'm not opposed to welfare and find those that are against it to be among those I disagree with.  I just want to see welfare, and most other government agencies become more efficient.

Yeah, welfare is a product of FDR.  It was going to happen as a result of Hoover's disgraceful performance in letting the economy go to waste without doing anything to counter the slide.  Perhaps welfare is no longer needed because of the abundance of jobs, but there are a lot of people who are unable to work who would probably be dead without welfare.  And the Bible says that if you don't work, you don't eat.  Well, it takes work to eat.  It requires effort (work) to lift food into the mouth, chew it and digest it.  It also requires work to go to the post office, endorse the check, and deposit it into the ATM machine. 

Dan



There will ALWAYS be a need for welfare.  I hate to burst your bubble.  We all need help sometimes.  Maybe it doesn't manifest itself in a monetary form, but please don't tell me that you've NEVER needed help!  I hope that you never, ever become disabled and unable to make a liveable wage.  Then you'd be one of those "lazy welfare bums".  Then you'd be one of those "bums" who do nothing but wait for a check.  That's all welfare people do, you know!  They have no desire to work, they love living below the poverty time.  It's so much fun!  Fun fun fun!

Other countries have NO PROBLEM supporting its citizens, especially the ones in dire need.  The U.S.?  Questionable.  We'd rather pay athletes and actors millions of dollars than help out a "lazy welfare bum".  Sick!  Sometimes I really hate this country.
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BAT
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« Reply #31 on: May 11, 2005, 08:13:04 am »


There will ALWAYS be a need for welfare.  I hate to burst your bubble.  We all need help sometimes.  Maybe it doesn't manifest itself in a monetary form, but please don't tell me that you've NEVER needed help!  I hope that you never, ever become disabled and unable to make a liveable wage.  Then you'd be one of those "lazy welfare bums".  Then you'd be one of those "bums" who do nothing but wait for a check.  That's all welfare people do, you know!  They have no desire to work, they love living below the poverty time.  It's so much fun!  Fun fun fun!

Other countries have NO PROBLEM supporting its citizens, especially the ones in dire need.  The U.S.?  Questionable.  We'd rather pay athletes and actors millions of dollars than help out a "lazy welfare bum".  Sick!  Sometimes I really hate this country.

first of all, if I was disabled I wouldn't be a bum, would I? 

Obviously, you refuse to pay any attention to what I write, because you feel guilty about YOUR situation.  If someone CANT work, they are not lazy.

If you hate this country, go to another one.

Brent
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M2
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« Reply #32 on: May 11, 2005, 09:26:41 am »


There will ALWAYS be a need for welfare.  I hate to burst your bubble.  We all need help sometimes.  Maybe it doesn't manifest itself in a monetary form, but please don't tell me that you've NEVER needed help!  I hope that you never, ever become disabled and unable to make a liveable wage.  Then you'd be one of those "lazy welfare bums".  Then you'd be one of those "bums" who do nothing but wait for a check.  That's all welfare people do, you know!  They have no desire to work, they love living below the poverty time.  It's so much fun!  Fun fun fun!

Other countries have NO PROBLEM supporting its citizens, especially the ones in dire need.  The U.S.?  Questionable.  We'd rather pay athletes and actors millions of dollars than help out a "lazy welfare bum".  Sick!  Sometimes I really hate this country.

The welfare system designed to help those in real need, actually hurts those who take advantage of it when they ought to be looking to other means for supporting themselves.

The support of athletes is another topic.  I assume actors make their own money.

Marcia
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enchilada
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« Reply #33 on: May 12, 2005, 11:22:43 am »



Here's an interesting essay.  Please read it, you may find it instructive.  It's a true classic  http://www.econlib.org/library/Essays/rdPncl1.html

Thanks. Looks like a good essay, something to read critically, which I'll do and comment asap.
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M2
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« Reply #34 on: May 12, 2005, 08:53:22 pm »

Quote from Beth Moore:

A rebellious child of God ...
1.  doesn't act like a child of God (Is 30:9).
2.  isn't willing to listen to God's instruction (Is 30:9).
3.  prefers pleasant illusions over truth (Is 30:10-11).
4.  relies on oppression. (Is 30:12).
5.  depends on deceit (Is 30:12).
6.  runs from the real answers (Is 30:15-17).


Isaiah 30:9-17 (NIV)
Copyright © 1973, 1978, 1984 by International Bible Society

    9 These are rebellious people, deceitful children,
       children unwilling to listen to the LORD's instruction.

    10 They say to the seers,
       "See no more visions!"
       and to the prophets,
       "Give us no more visions of what is right!
       Tell us pleasant things,
       prophesy illusions.

    11 Leave this way,
       get off this path,
       and stop confronting us
       with the Holy One of Israel!"

    12 Therefore, this is what the Holy One of Israel says:
       "Because you have rejected this message,
       relied on oppression
       and depended on deceit,

    13 this sin will become for you
       like a high wall, cracked and bulging,
       that collapses suddenly, in an instant.

    14 It will break in pieces like pottery,
       shattered so mercilessly
       that among its pieces not a fragment will be found
       for taking coals from a hearth
       or scooping water out of a cistern."

    15 This is what the Sovereign LORD, the Holy One of Israel, says:
       "In repentance and rest is your salvation,
       in quietness and trust is your strength,
       but you would have none of it.

    16 You said, 'No, we will flee on horses.'
       Therefore you will flee!
       You said, 'We will ride off on swift horses.'
       Therefore your pursuers will be swift!

    17 A thousand will flee
       at the threat of one;
       at the threat of five
       you will all flee away,
       till you are left
       like a flagstaff on a mountaintop,
       like a banner on a hill."
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BAT
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« Reply #35 on: May 12, 2005, 08:56:07 pm »

Marcia,

How do you see this quote's application to the welfare thread?

Also, did you read the article i listed below?  It's really good.

Brent
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M2
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« Reply #36 on: May 12, 2005, 09:40:24 pm »

Marcia,

How do you see this quote's application to the welfare thread?

Also, did you read the article i listed below?  It's really good.

Brent

In the Breaking Free studies by Beth Moore, she mentions looking into past history to identify areas where the "who we are" are actually areas of bondage from which Christ wants to set us free.  Then upon recognizing those areas, God has to work.  The rebellious child chooses avenues of escape because the work is painful.  I posted this here because of the discussion re. support groups etc related to this topic.  I especially thought points 3 & 6 were relevant and the related verses in Isaiah 30.

3.  prefers pleasant illusions over truth (Is 30:10-11).
Is 30:10 They say to the seers,
       "See no more visions!"
       and to the prophets,
       "Give us no more visions of what is right!
       Tell us pleasant things,
       prophesy illusions.

    11 Leave this way,
       get off this path,
       and stop confronting us
       with the Holy One of Israel!"

6.  runs from the real answers (Is 30:15-17).
Is 30: 15 This is what the Sovereign LORD, the Holy One of Israel, says:
       "In repentance and rest is your salvation,
       in quietness and trust is your strength,
       but you would have none of it.

    16 You said, 'No, we will flee on horses.'
       Therefore you will flee!
       You said, 'We will ride off on swift horses.'
       Therefore your pursuers will be swift!

    17 A thousand will flee
       at the threat of one;
       at the threat of five
       you will all flee away,
       till you are left
       like a flagstaff on a mountaintop,
       like a banner on a hill."



No I had not read the essay, but I just did.

'...The lesson I have to teach is this: Leave all creative energies uninhibited. Merely organize society to act in harmony with this lesson. Let society's legal apparatus remove all obstacles the best it can. Permit these creative know-hows freely to flow. Have faith that free men and women will respond to the Invisible Hand. This faith will be confirmed. I, Pencil, seemingly simple though I am, offer the miracle of my creation as testimony that this is a practical faith, as practical as the sun, the rain, a cedar tree, the good earth."  Leonard E. Read (1898-1983)

'... it takes the knowledge of countless people to produce a single pencil. No newcomer to economics who reads "I, Pencil" can fail to have a simplistic belief in the superiority of central planning or regulation deeply shaken. ...'  —DONALD J. BOUDREAUX
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BAT
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« Reply #37 on: May 12, 2005, 11:25:11 pm »

In the Breaking Free studies by Beth Moore, she mentions looking into past history to identify areas where the "who we are" are actually areas of bondage from which Christ wants to set us free.  Then upon recognizing those areas, God has to work.  The rebellious child chooses avenues of escape because the work is painful.  I posted this here because of the discussion re. support groups etc related to this topic.  I especially thought points 3 & 6 were relevant and the related verses in Isaiah 30.

3.  prefers pleasant illusions over truth (Is 30:10-11).
Is 30:10 They say to the seers,
       "See no more visions!"
       and to the prophets,
       "Give us no more visions of what is right!
       Tell us pleasant things,
       prophesy illusions.

    11 Leave this way,
       get off this path,
       and stop confronting us
       with the Holy One of Israel!"

6.  runs from the real answers (Is 30:15-17).
Is 30: 15 This is what the Sovereign LORD, the Holy One of Israel, says:
       "In repentance and rest is your salvation,
       in quietness and trust is your strength,
       but you would have none of it.

    16 You said, 'No, we will flee on horses.'
       Therefore you will flee!
       You said, 'We will ride off on swift horses.'
       Therefore your pursuers will be swift!

    17 A thousand will flee
       at the threat of one;
       at the threat of five
       you will all flee away,
       till you are left
       like a flagstaff on a mountaintop,
       like a banner on a hill."



No I had not read the essay, but I just did.

'...The lesson I have to teach is this: Leave all creative energies uninhibited. Merely organize society to act in harmony with this lesson. Let society's legal apparatus remove all obstacles the best it can. Permit these creative know-hows freely to flow. Have faith that free men and women will respond to the Invisible Hand. This faith will be confirmed. I, Pencil, seemingly simple though I am, offer the miracle of my creation as testimony that this is a practical faith, as practical as the sun, the rain, a cedar tree, the good earth."  Leonard E. Read (1898-1983)

'... it takes the knowledge of countless people to produce a single pencil. No newcomer to economics who reads "I, Pencil" can fail to have a simplistic belief in the superiority of central planning or regulation deeply shaken. ...'  —DONALD J. BOUDREAUX

With regard to Beth Moore.....Amen.  I agree.

With regard to I, Pencil, I hope no one mistakes the Invisilble Hand, with George's Giant Hand.  The Invisible Hand is an economic concept, NOT a metaphysical reference! 

The idea of the invisible hand in economics is that free people, in a free market band together in unimaginable ways to produce goods and services, which are driven by the quest for mutual benefit.  You want an warm house, and I sell heaters.  Someone else makes the heater, using raw materials made by others, mined by others, shipped by others, etc.  This occurs most effectively when there is no central planning or regulation.

A great modern day example of this would be the Internet.  Contrary to what Al Gore said, no one person invented the web.  It sprang up as a result of the unhindered, unregulated creativity of many thousands of people.  It is absolutely amazing. 

Contrast this unregulated, unplanned miracle with the highly regulated, highly planned institution of Medicare, or ANY OTHER GOVERNMENT ENTITY.

While the Internet gets faster, better and more efficient every day, the government gets slower, with increasingly worse service and more waste....every day.

I hope more people read the article, and search around and read some other great minds, like Von Mises. 

Here's where I'm going with all of this:

the problem we have with poverty is like any other economic problem in that it is in EVERYONE'S best interest to reduce the number of people who live in poverty.  Do we allow free, inregulated people to work on this issue with the same efficiency used to produce pencils and the Internet, or do we give the task to a corrupt, bloated, woefully inefficient federal government?  I guess it depends on what our motivation is, and the results we hope to see.

If we are motivated to solving the problem, no sane person can argue that free people and free markets will do less to eliminate poverty than centralized government.  However, people who want to get their hands on other people's money, and make their living by "doing good," with what other people produced....these people will try to get as much government involvement as they can.  The next step is to get as many poor people as possible, in order to grow the new industry.  More people can be employed in the "Robin Hood," do-good war on poverty, and more poor people keeps feeding the fire.

Anyone can see that sooner or later this whole notion will result in collapse.  The lazy people who choose not to work are part of the problem.  However, the bigger part of the problem are those who encourage this type of behavior.  In doing so, they appeal to the baser human nature and will reap a bitter harvest.

Dan mentioned that he doesn't mind paying taxes in order to see welfare keep these people afloat.   I say that he would still be able to give as much as he wanted to, to any poor person he chose, without the tax.

Government in it's simplest form, is inefficient when it comes to wealth re-redistribution, because it is a middle man.  It is more efficient for me to give a person 100 dollars than for me to mail the money to the East Coast, and have them mail it back to the West Coast.  In order to do that it costs .76 in stamps, and perhaps .04 in envelopes.  It might also take another 2.00 in labor.

Just by getting the government invovled my 100 dollar donation is reduced to 97.20.  Of course, in reality it is actually reduced to less than 20.00.   That is amazingly , shockingly, spectacularly inefficient!  It's criminal to support this, IMO.

Brent
« Last Edit: May 12, 2005, 11:27:13 pm by BAT » Logged
M2
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« Reply #38 on: May 13, 2005, 08:52:57 am »

Brent,

It is outrageous that only 20% of welfare money makes it to the recipient.  Your arguments are logical, but idealistic because I dot see the government giving up the welfare system.  However, with the disbanding of welfare, giving not knowing what the other hand is doing might actually become a common practice, and those who can work might actually work to support themselves.

Marcia
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editor
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« Reply #39 on: May 13, 2005, 09:08:12 am »

Brent,

It is outrageous that only 20% of welfare money makes it to the recipient.  Your arguments are logical, but idealistic because I dot see the government giving up the welfare system.  However, with the disbanding of welfare, giving not knowing what the other hand is doing might actually become a common practice, and those who can work might actually work to support themselves.

Marcia

Yes, it's idealistic.  I am aware of that, for sure. I guess I would just say a couple things:

it's gonna crash anyways, so we will end up taking responsiblity one way or the other
The ideas that led to the American Revolution were idealistic, as is the constitution. 

Are my thoughts in that league?  No, not even close.  However, if we always sacrifice principles for expediency, we will end up with a huge mess.  That's what we are heading towards now.

Brent
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enchilada
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« Reply #40 on: May 16, 2005, 12:50:29 am »


I don't really think that you believe it's work to cash a check you didn't earn at the bank, do you?

A friend of mine made a lot of money in six months by buying and selling a single piece of small property.  His effort was equivalent to applying for welfare, going through the lines, etc., and waiting for the check.  By comparing, it appears that it's work to cash a check you didn't earn at the bank. 



OK, so how do you propose to make welfare more efficient?

Downsize half the employees, rented space, parking garages, etc. in the welfare departments, and farm the work out to private companies.  That should increase the efficiency from 20% to 60%.


To digress, I think socialism sounds awesome....on paper.  In practice, it will never do anything other than make a lame, unhappy country. 
Capitalism, on paper, sounds like survival of the fittest, dog-eat-dog, anarchy, where the rich get richer at the expense of the poor.  However, in practice it works better than socialism.

Socialism is unapplicaple.  The events of the past century are the proof.  Pure capitalism, on the other hand, due to inherent greed, is also not good.  The necessity of the emergence of the unions was the proof of that.  There needs to be a balance, and that is to permit people to start and grow a business, but to have some uncomplicated government regulations to prevent the business from causing trouble. 
Overall, welfare is a necessity because it keeps more people off the streets.  It has it's problems but, overall, it's good for society.  If people are against welfare because they believe that it robs them of their money through extra taxes, then I sympathize with them and recommend that they go out and make more money to make of for the discrepancy.  One way is to work on weekends.  If you work 7 days instead of 5, that's a 40% increase in salary--more than enough to makeup for the taxes caused by welfare. 

Dan
« Last Edit: May 16, 2005, 08:39:35 am by Dan Frederickson » Logged
al Hartman
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« Reply #41 on: July 22, 2005, 03:34:06 pm »



The other evening, I caught a broadcast tape of the Kennedy Center presentation of the Mark Twain Award to Bob Newhart.  In his brief acceptance comments, Newhart said someting that seems worth posting here:

A former accountant, Newhart said that one of his early jobs, in the 1950s, was working full-time in a welfeare office for $60 a week.  The recipients he served got $55 a week and they, he pointed out, only had to come in one day a week.

al
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outdeep
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« Reply #42 on: July 22, 2005, 05:56:36 pm »


The other evening, I caught a broadcast tape of the Kennedy Center presentation of the Mark Twain Award to Bob Newhart.  In his brief acceptance comments, Newhart said someting that seems worth posting here:

A former accountant, Newhart said that one of his early jobs, in the 1950s, was working full-time in a welfeare office for $60 a week.  The recipients he served got $55 a week and they, he pointed out, only had to come in one day a week.

al

Think of it as making $1.25 per day for the remaining four days.   Roll Eyes
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