Can anyone really ever get beyond "their issues?"

[BAT]

Brent & Others, what if the passion wasn't criminal, but undeniably sinful?  Then what?  No specific examples come to mind. 

If a person likes to do a sinful activity, they are probably going to keep doing it. 
When they get to the point where they mourn over their sin, they will probably stop.

[David Mauldin]

Bro You are right about the arthritis, I've walked many a hallway with a TKR telling me about "jogging on asphalt/concrete" I use to run the dirt path in Oneill park but my wife got me to join 24 hour fitness. Running the treadmill is quite a difference on the joints!  I guess the issue is hey! I have grace on my friend!  I still treat him with respect. Yet, he sees my ex as less than himself even though he has his own issues just like her!

[BAT]

Bro You are right about the arthritis, I've walked many a hallway with a TKR telling me about "jogging on asphalt/concrete" I use to run the dirt path in Oneill park but my wife got me to join 24 hour fitness. Running the treadmill is quite a difference on the joints!  I guess the issue is hey! I have grace on my friend!  I still treat him with respect. Yet, he sees my ex as less than himself even though he has his own issues just like her!

So I guess you answered your own question.  He sees himself as "better" than her.  We all have our issues, no doubt about it. 

However, there are some issues that are far worse than others:

The "evident" works of the flesh are bigger issues than being overweight.  In fact, the Bible says being "fat" is a blessing.  ( I don't think obesity is the idea here)

I am NOT of the opinion that everyone deserves equal respect.  Respect is something to be earned.  If a person shows me, night after night, that they don't know how to play poker, and raise every hand just to irritate people, I don't respect them, or their raises.  However, if I notice a quiet guy, who is polite and seems to pay attention to everything, if I notice that this guy wins every hand he gets involved with, but that ony plays one or two an hour....I respect this guy alot. 

I think life is the same way.  Lot's of people lose, because they don't have good hands, others bluff, and eventually lose, but those that are patient, focused and hardworking come out on top sooner or later. 

The best type of person to play poker with is what I call the "smart alec."   Every game has at least one of these.  They play garbage hands and honestly think they are smarter for doing that than everyone else.  They mock people who play mathmatically, and proudly share how they, "Never read a single poker book, didn't need to!"  They play the players, not the cards.

These guys are too stupid to know that they suck!  If you're just patient, and wait till you have a good hand, you raise them and act angry.  Their egos won't let them back down, and besides, they want to beat a "smart player," in order to prove that they're better.

They lose, because they think they're better than others.  That's different than being a bad player and knowing it. 

I don't know where I was going with this.....oh well.  People do change if they want to.

[vernecarty]

If a person likes to do a sinful activity, they are probably going to keep doing it. 
When they get to the point where they mourn over their sin, they will probably stop.

There is, unfortunately, also progress along that path for that walk is also directional...
As the hymnwriter stated- prone to wander...
Verne

[Elizabeth H]

Hello everyone.
I guess you could say I've been one of the "phantom" participants of this BB. I've never posted, but have dropped in from time to time to read everyone's thoughts, experiences etc. It has been a very profound experience for me. I finally decided to jump in today (not without a great deal of trepidation!) because this particular subject greatly interests me.

Most of you probably knew me as Elizabeth Geftakys, daughter of Timothy & Ginger Geftakys. I'm 28 now, my husband & I left the Fullerton Assembly in Jan. 2003--about four days prior to the official excommunication of my grandfather, George Geftakys. I wish I could make amends to all of you for the "sins of my fathers." After reading some of the heart-wrending experiences so many have gone through, I have many times been brought to tears. I, like many of you, have experienced great suffering as a result of my Assembly years---25 yrs. to be exact.

The reason I am posting today is because the issue that David Mauldin has brought up strikes a very sensitive chord in me. I have spent the past two years trying to make my life look as different as possible from my Assembly persona. I have grappled with the issue: what does it mean to have been a Geftakys and am I doomed to repeat the "sins of my fathers"? I have wondered many times through many sleepless nights: why me? Why my family? Is this who I am?

Anyway, all this to say: through the kind help of a few gentle people (and God) I have come to realize that my past as Geftakys does NOT determine my future. For this, I thank God. If anyone was ingrained with Geftakys-ism, it was the children raised in that environment. Little by little, and through determined and conscious effort on my part, I am casting off the shackles of the Assembly. I am helped by God's grace (amazingly, my faith did not completely abandon me!), and am on the slow journey to recovery.

So, to answer Dave's question: can anyone ever get beyond "their issues"?---I certainly hope so and yes, I am experiencing it every day. I have to believe that God is stronger than my "issues" and stronger than my past as a Geftakys.

I continue to hope. 

[David Mauldin]

Good for you Elizabeth!   I am so glad to hear you say that!  I think it is great that you are moving on. I apologize for being such an ass!


    Do I contradict myself! Very well then I contradict myself, I am large, I contain multitudes!

                                                             Walt Whitman


                                                         
                                               

                 

[BAT]

Hello everyone.
I guess you could say I've been one of the "phantom" participants of this BB. I've never posted, but have dropped in from time to time to read everyone's thoughts, experiences etc. It has been a very profound experience for me. I finally decided to jump in today (not without a great deal of trepidation!) because this particular subject greatly interests me.

Most of you probably knew me as Elizabeth Geftakys, daughter of Timothy & Ginger Geftakys. I'm 28 now, my husband & I left the Fullerton Assembly in Jan. 2003--about four days prior to the official excommunication of my grandfather, George Geftakys. I wish I could make amends to all of you for the "sins of my fathers." After reading some of the heart-wrending experiences so many have gone through, I have many times been brought to tears. I, like many of you, have experienced great suffering as a result of my Assembly years---25 yrs. to be exact.

The reason I am posting today is because the issue that David Mauldin has brought up strikes a very sensitive chord in me. I have spent the past two years trying to make my life look as different as possible from my Assembly persona. I have grappled with the issue: what does it mean to have been a Geftakys and am I doomed to repeat the "sins of my fathers"? I have wondered many times through many sleepless nights: why me? Why my family? Is this who I am?

Anyway, all this to say: through the kind help of a few gentle people (and God) I have come to realize that my past as Geftakys does NOT determine my future. For this, I thank God. If anyone was ingrained with Geftakys-ism, it was the children raised in that environment. Little by little, and through determined and conscious effort on my part, I am casting off the shackles of the Assembly. I am helped by God's grace (amazingly, my faith did not completely abandon me!), and am on the slow journey to recovery.

So, to answer Dave's question: can anyone ever get beyond "their issues"?---I certainly hope so and yes, I am experiencing it every day. I have to believe that God is stronger than my "issues" and stronger than my past as a Geftakys.

I continue to hope. 

God is stronger than your issues, to the point that He declares you righteous.  Good for you Elizabeth!  If you and the other kids can heal, certainly some others can as well.  The fact that you want to cast off the shackles is all that is needed.  You'll be successfull!

I wish you nothing but the best!

Brent

[vernecarty]

I continue to hope. 

And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience;  And patience, experience; and experience, hope:  And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.
Great to hear from you Elizabeth! Thanks for what you shared.
Verne

[Elizabeth H]

hey, no worries dave! i have only great, fun memories of you! you were the best craft counsellor at summer camp: come on down now, was the call for crafts each day, as we molded and we painted and we crafted with the clay! oh, works of art! to touch our mother's heart! remember that? 

brent: you and your family were part of the reason I stayed sane during that MTT from hell in summer '97! i remember i had a migraine one afternoon (stress induced, i'm sure) and you pressed some spot on my neck and the headache magically disappeared!  not to mention, i loved your kids, gillian and paulina were such cutie-pies.

pardon the digression on this thread!
p.s. hi verne, i don't remember you...but you probably remember me?

[vernecarty]

I cannot fathom this statement.  One who has practiced self-denial so often makes even the non-believer look good next to the Christian....

Perhaps, but is looking good a worthy end?

so self-denial is good even for the non-believer.  Even the NB can do good because of self-denial.  The distinction is that the believer is denying self out of love for God and obedience to God and faith and trust in God which produces a life of intimacy IN GOD by promise which is by the faithful and true laws of God.  If you will, I will.....

Doing good is an altogether different matter. I would not equate it with self-denial in the way I think you intend it.
To do good for one's fellow man is part and parcel of the human condition and clearly doing good does not necessarily require a "denial of self". I would argue that is an affirmation of self. To do good is entirely human!

Without self-denial, in general, man is a selfish, cruel monster.  Self-denial is painful and is rewarded for it's good apart from the salvation that is in Christ.  But the self-denial (or death of the cross) - this type of self-denial produces eternal life in the exchange.  "Exercise the disciplines of the body, as Paul says, little worth, but discipline of the soul is very worthy."  Rough paraphrase. 

 Does it follow that with self denial the opposite is true? Sondra are you aware of the religions that practice the most severe kind of personal privation including self-flagellation?
Some seemingly self-less acts are borne of quite impure motives.
Remember we are talking to believers whose interest is in how to overcome the tendencies of the flesh, not to mature christians on matters of spiritual discipline.
When you simply tell the stuggling believer to "deny himself" he will plaintively and correctly tell you that he finds it impossible!

The "good" and the sacrificial will enjoy a certain preservation in eternity because they have patterned their lives after a good God.  They have little or no spiritual understanding of a Faith and a Love walk with God, have not been through the excruciating pain of testing and trials of Faith, but "goodness" counts....thank God!

Only God knows. Appearances can be quite deceiving. It is far more diificult to judge what is truly a work of the Spirit of God and not merely the product of carnal energy. At times they are difficult to distinguish.

Do we not deny the Lord (His Will) or we deny ourselves?  Isn't it one or the other?  Peter was grieved because he denied the Lord.  He served his own interests and denied the Lord's. 

This is the whole point. Self-denial must have a purpose. One does not walk around the entire day deciding NOT to do what one thinks one should. Self-denial is a totally meanigless expression apart from a stated context.

Luke wrote what he heard the Lord teach, "And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.  Luke 9:23  (KJV)

BINGO! We may then ask ourselves, is in this matter, my pursuit of Christ an issue?
"If any man will come after me..."
That which in your life will interfere with your pursuit of Christ, in another man's may not, ergo, take up his cross...
There is no universal self-denial formula that a person may apply. Like the case of the rich youg ruler, that is God's business to discern...

 

Did the Lord act in his own best interests or ours?  If ours, to his own pain and loss, was/is He stupid?

Both, for they were not mutually exclusive. The fact that it was what God wanted Him to do,  was prima facie proof that it was ultimately indeed in His best interests. God has highly exalted Him...!

[editor]

hey, no worries dave! i have only great, fun memories of you! you were the best craft counsellor at summer camp: come on down now, was the call for crafts each day, as we molded and we painted and we crafted with the clay! oh, works of art! to touch our mother's heart! remember that? 

brent: you and your family were part of the reason I stayed sane during that MTT from hell in summer '97! i remember i had a migraine one afternoon (stress induced, i'm sure) and you pressed some spot on my neck and the headache magically disappeared!  not to mention, i loved your kids, gillian and paulina were such cutie-pies.

pardon the digression on this thread!
p.s. hi verne, i don't remember you...but you probably remember me?

You are too kind!  When I look back on that Summer, and some of the other teams, I do have some fond memories, mostly of the hanging out and talking variety.  The outreach was really gruelling.  I loved the driving!  

I guess you were under some pressure that summer, being who you were, and newly engaged.  If so, you didn't show it!  But then, we weren't supposed to show it, were we?  

The kids are still cute, although they are larger.  Shawn is 6'3" and came close to beating me in an arm-wrestle.  I won't wrestle him for real anymore....he'll hurt me.  

[vernecarty]

p.s. hi verne, i don't remember you...but you probably remember me?

Hi!:

Unless you came to Champaign sometime before '89 we probably never met Elizabeth.
So pleased to meet you...
Verne

[vernecarty]

If a Christian comes to me an confides that he is struggling with some besetting sin, the matter of primary interest for me would not be what he does, but what he knows.
It is nothing short of remarkable, the frequency with which Paul will make some critical point of practical doctrine with the interrogative:  "Know ye not...?"
I would certainly not inform such a person that what they needed to do was to deny themselves.
They are in the position they are in clearly because they have been unable to do just that.
You cannot talk to a person about walking, until you have talked to them about sitting, and standing.
It is quite startling to observe the number of true Christians who do not fully appreciate where God has placed them in Christ.
It is remarkable how many Christians are of the opinion that what was begun in the Spirit, will now be completed in the flesh. One has to begin with clarity on position and having a  proper perspective.
I won't talk in any detail about those as I will assume we have broad agreement.

(It goes without saying that what is being presented here has absolutely no application for a person who does not know Jesus Christ.)

What about this matter of walking in the Spirit?
What exactly is that and how does one do it?
I was not joking when I posed the question of whether is person could be at all serious about a matter like this without having talked to God about it.
The application of salvation in the life of the Christian is the exclusive domain of the Spirit of God.
Your pastor cannot do it.
Your efforts cannot do it.
This BB cannot do it.
God alone can do it.
Are you going to attempt it without Hiim?
If you are going to walk in the Spirit, there first has to be transparency:

But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. 1 John 1:7

More later...
Verne

[M2]

Hello everyone.
I guess you could say I've been one of the "phantom" participants of this BB. I've never posted, but have dropped in from time to time to read everyone's thoughts, experiences etc. It has been a very profound experience for me. I finally decided to jump in today (not without a great deal of trepidation!) because this particular subject greatly interests me.

Most of you probably knew me as Elizabeth Geftakys, daughter of Timothy & Ginger Geftakys. I'm 28 now, my husband & I left the Fullerton Assembly in Jan. 2003--about four days prior to the official excommunication of my grandfather, George Geftakys. I wish I could make amends to all of you for the "sins of my fathers." After reading some of the heart-wrending experiences so many have gone through, I have many times been brought to tears. I, like many of you, have experienced great suffering as a result of my Assembly years---25 yrs. to be exact.

The reason I am posting today is because the issue that David Mauldin has brought up strikes a very sensitive chord in me. I have spent the past two years trying to make my life look as different as possible from my Assembly persona. I have grappled with the issue: what does it mean to have been a Geftakys and am I doomed to repeat the "sins of my fathers"? I have wondered many times through many sleepless nights: why me? Why my family? Is this who I am?

Anyway, all this to say: through the kind help of a few gentle people (and God) I have come to realize that my past as Geftakys does NOT determine my future. For this, I thank God. If anyone was ingrained with Geftakys-ism, it was the children raised in that environment. Little by little, and through determined and conscious effort on my part, I am casting off the shackles of the Assembly. I am helped by God's grace (amazingly, my faith did not completely abandon me!), and am on the slow journey to recovery.

So, to answer Dave's question: can anyone ever get beyond "their issues"?---I certainly hope so and yes, I am experiencing it every day. I have to believe that God is stronger than my "issues" and stronger than my past as a Geftakys.

I continue to hope. 

Dear Elizabeth,

Thank you for sharing that with us.  It is encouraging to see God's healing work in your life. May God use you to bless others with the lessons that your learn from all of this.

God bless,
Marcia

Isaiah 61:1,4 (NIV)
       He has sent me to bind up the brokenhearted,
       to proclaim freedom for the captives
       and release from darkness for the prisoners,
....
       They will rebuild the ancient ruins
       and restore the places long devastated;
       they will renew the ruined cities
       that have been devastated for generations.

[matthew r. sciaini]

Elizabeth:

Good to have you on the forum.  It's good to hear from you.

Unlike you, most of my "issues" were in place before my Assembly days.

I can't imagine not having a "before".

I have to admit, though, that for YEARS I can remember you being not too excited about being "in the meeting".

Forgive me for judging you at those times, and in any poor judgment I have shown in my comments here.

Matt Sciaini