Can anyone really ever get beyond "their issues?"

[vernecarty]

Vern,
       I followed up my statement with the Minitor illustration. See greek mythology. The minitor was a beast that couldn't be defeated but controled!

O.K. I think I get it. You are saying that the way in which you changed was not an essential one, and that all you did was manage to bring the raging beast under some semblance of control?
You are also implying that this is probably true for others as well.
Furthermore, just because a belief produces a desirable effect does not in and of itself attest to the validity of such a belief. Fair enough.
I have to say that your  profession of faith did appear to have a major impact. Many otherwise strong  and decisive folk try without success to give uo vices of one sort or another.
We are starting to touch a very interesting area of Biblical psychology here and so I want to pose this question.
Assuming the evidence of your own life, and what you observe in others suggest that the beast is only capable of being tamed and not transformed, then it stands to reason, that if in your own experience or what you observe of the experience of others, transformation did indeed occur,(to be judged by any standard you chose) it seems that you would have to revise your theory.
Verne

[David Mauldin]

Vern, I don't understand what you are asking me?  I guess I can say it like this I don't believe we can take out the evil dark side that is in us all. It will always be there!  It is who we are! Which reminds me The new Star Wars is coming out!!! So I guess I am toying with the idea that some we should just let some sleeping dogs lie?  Some people (Like my ex cannot change, even if she wanted to be someone different she can't, so I need to just accept her for who she is.) Now on the other hand if I think one of my students can do a better job on their homework I am going to push them. But I have learned to not push some kids!  I don't know if what I am saying is making any sense. O.K. time to go to bed!!!

[M2]

Can anyone really ever get beyond "their issues?"

There's a difference between having issues and wallowing in them.
Till the day we die, we will be facing some issue or another.  But like a babe who grows into a toddler and then a kid, teen and then a mature adult, there ought to be continual growth and progress with a number of snags along the way.

God bless,
Marcia

[vernecarty]

Vern, I don't understand what you are asking me?  I guess I can say it like this I don't believe we can take out the evil dark side that is in us all. It will always be there!  It is who we are! Which reminds me The new Star Wars is coming out!!! So I guess I am toying with the idea that some we should just let some sleeping dogs lie?  Some people (Like my ex cannot change, even if she wanted to be someone different she can't, so I need to just accept her for who she is.) Now on the other hand if I think one of my students can do a better job on their homework I am going to push them. But I have learned to not push some kids!  I don't know if what I am saying is making any sense. O.K. time to go to bed!!!

Just whether or not you believe the old adage - the exception proves the rule.

If you met someone, who in your opinion had undergone undeniable transformation, defeating the beast as it were, or better yet, if something like this were to happen in your own life, despite your doubts, what then?
It happens to be my opinon, that we as Christians do not truly know dispair, until we actually make a serious and determined attempt to live a holy life. Most of us are quite content with spiritual mediocrity.
It is the recognition, of the absolute futility of any effort we can bring to our own transformation, that propels us into a violent  pursuit of God, out of sheer necessity!, that He might accomplish what we clearly cannot!
I suspect that you are in a better place than you think my friend...
Verne

p.s. another way of saying the above is that no one, and I mean no one, gets to Romans 8, without going through Romans 7...

[David Mauldin]

   Not to change the subject but, Have you ever noticed some people who go through life completely oblivious of their issues?  Or completely comfortable in their dysfunctional life?  I have a theory that if we all lived in a world that totally conformed to our dysfunctions then we would all be in heaven. Many people are in this situation. I myself am very happy to have a wife who fits pretty well along with my issues. Had I married my ex-fiance' I would have spent my life learning how to be patient, kind, careing, selfless ....etc

[mkoley]

David,

I am very intrigued by this subject and am very thankful you brought this up.  In fact, in dwelling on this subject the past few weeks, I read this verse in Ecclesiastes 8:20 "Indeed, there is not a righteous man on earth who continually does good and who never sins."  I would love to not feel guilty over sins, even after confession.  SIN=SELF-CONDEMNATION.  Over, not be depressed, give in to certain indulges, etc.  I could literally go on typing for days.  The best advice, Christian or not, is "don't beat yourself up" or "don't worry about it".  To vent a little, that advice is WORSE THAN PURE COWPOOP!  IT'S ABSOLUTELY WORTHLESS.  Yeah, sure, I'll just wake up tomorrow, pray to God and tell him to make me not worry and for feel guilty. Been there, done that, still do, hasn't worked thus far. 

I almost tempted to buy into your philosophy of conforming to our disfunctions.  This may more be along the lines of giving into an indulgence, but I'll give the example anyway.  I have a Christian friend who constantly bemoans about two different struggles.  Pornography and Anger.  He seems to lease out at people when he's driving behind the road, goes off on people for no apparent reason, etc.  He tries to refrain from it, but it ends up giving in.   With Pornography, he usually goes to various Webster and one thing leads to another.  He'll give it up for a couple of days, but then gives place to it, eventually.  He has talked to/counseled with numerous Pastors, Christian leaders, prayed, claimed certain Bible verses, read several Christian books, but to no avail.  His life can be described enjoying these activities for a short while, then feeling guilty for days, if not weeks, once the guilt subsides, the vicious cycle starts all over again. 

Ironically, I have another friend, formerly Assembly member, now self-proclaimed Atheists, who use to have a similiar struggle with pornography.  Now, he claims he feels no guilt when it comes to pornography, but rather embraces it, as well as other things not necessarily related to it.  He does what he does, guilt free. 

Although I don't struggle with these particular activities, per say, there are other struggles/issues similiar to this in which I go through the same vicious cycle.  It doesn't help the matter when both my buddy and I are married.  Then our struggles are even more compounded. I have given what I think is sound Christian advice to my buddy thus far.  But, I am almost tempted to tell him instead of fighting your sin, try embracing it.  For instance, maybe channel your anger into something positive.  I don't know what, of hand, that would be, but don't be afraid to be stern, as long as your are clear and direct when speaking.  In my brief working life, some of the most effective bosses I have had are very anger, yet very direct.  For Pornography, I know most Christians would vilify me for this, but why not have a situation where, on special occasions, you and your wife watch pornography together.  Not every time you make love, but on special occasions, and keep it exclusively between you and her.  Why struggle, why feel guilty, but rather why not come to a healthy compromise?  Just thinking out loud. 

I know for myself, a lot of what I don't do, or what I do, from a Christian perspective, is because of fear and guilt.  I simply can't remove these from the equation. 

[David Mauldin]

Thanks for the advice! I'll bring it up with Pam tonight!

[vernecarty]

I have a Christian friend who constantly bemoans about two different struggles.  Pornography and Anger.  He seems to lease out at people when he's driving behind the road, goes off on people for no apparent reason, etc.  He tries to refrain from it, but it ends up giving in.   With Pornography, he usually goes to various Webster and one thing leads to another.  He'll give it up for a couple of days, but then gives place to it, eventually.  He has talked to/counseled with numerous Pastors, Christian leaders, prayed, claimed certain Bible verses, read several Christian books, but to no avail.  His life can be described enjoying these activities for a short while, then feeling guilty for days, if not weeks, once the guilt subsides, the vicious cycle starts all over again. 

Ironically, I have another friend, formerly Assembly member, now self-proclaimed Atheists, who use to have a similiar struggle with pornography.  Now, he claims he feels no guilt when it comes to pornography, but rather embraces it, as well as other things not necessarily related to it.  He does what he does, guilt free. 

Self-denial, when enjoined upon others but divorced from God's revealed wlll is dangerous business.
It is an age-old heresy, that self-denial in and of itself has any intrinsic value.
Part of the human condition is a built in instinct for survival and self-interest.
This is entirely normal and right.
In the assemblies folk were taught to nullify this natural condition and George and his henchmen would cleverly camouflage their art in manipulation by invoking some lying and coercive argument like "do you want what God wants?"
His blatantly taking God's name in vain is far more serious that his sexual indiscretions in my opinion.

If you do not act in your own best interests lets face it folks, you are plain stupid.
The Christian believes that sin has impaired this faculty and left to his own devices, he tends to make self-destructive choices. The only reason for relinquishing one's will to another is an absolute conviction that that individual is more able to act in my best interests than I am myself able to do.
It then becomes obvious what a horror it is that those who insist that others submit their will to them. are  de facto doing - they are really taking the place of God.
The fact that one's own inclination may differ from what God intends is not in and of itself sinful.
Who is prepared to argue that Christ sinned when he requested that if it were possible that the proffered cup pass from Him?
Talking about self-danial, going the way of the cross and all the incarnatons of this kind of thinking when divorced from a clear statement that it occurs only to embrace God's will lead others down a path of abject misery and failure.
If you do not understand that any denial of self enjoined on you, is indeed by the will of God to result in your best interests, it is noting but a manupulative, coercive and totally useless doctrine.

[vernecarty]

Ok, let's say you are right.  Now we know what NOT to do and what doesn't work.  I'm not really sure I know what you are saying above, but it sounded like criticism.  But now, what do we do to interrupt the death grip of fleshly sin in the sinner's life?  I hope it will be something that works....that truly delivers one from their sin.  I am very sincere.  What do we do with the sin in our lives that holds us in bondage and torment ?

Sondra

This is a great question. I am frankly humbled by it and I will tell you why.
We both know I am not perfect, but I do know one thing.
God is able to deliver. I know it first hand.
I do not think it is possible to truly share effectively spiritual  truths that one has not learned and applied personally.
One caveat. He does not work in quite the same way in every person and the way he leads in my case my be different from the way he does in some other Christian.
The priciples are consistent though. Let me think a bit about how I want to say this and I will first talk about principle then give my personal view on how one might  put it into practice.
Verne

[David Mauldin]

I am not sure if I am following this but I will say yes!  To give place to the flesh (animal nature) all the time, without considering the consequences would be a quick road to self destruction. However it may not always be wrong for every person. In every Harry potter book Professor Dumbledor says "Do not go into the forbidden Forest!" Yet in every Harry Potter book Harry ends up going in!!!  He is not suppose to and other students like Nevil longbottom would no doubt "suffer a terrible death." Yet Harry must go that way if he is going to find the answers he is looking for!  Now when it comes to addictions I think I have found different ways to avoid them through communicating with other people! Through art, books, my wife etc..Does this make any sense?

[vernecarty]

Do be patient as I try and put in intelligible words, some of the thougts that are swimming in my head.
I mentioned before how important it is to recognize the progress of the redemptive work in the believer, namely that God dealt with sin's penalty past, He deals with sin's power presently, and will deal with sin's very presence prospectively, this last requiring a dramatic change of venue in the form of literally new bodies.


Sin in our lives will confound us I believe only if we fail to see the various aspects of the truth of the remarkable work of salvation achieved for us in Christ.


There is a truth that sits:

 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:


There is a truth that stands:

Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.

There is a truth that wallks:

There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

The first has to do with our position, the second to do with our perception, the third with our performance.

If we are unclear about one and two, the third will forever elude us.
I trust by the grace of God that one and two are settled.
Now I need to really spend some time thinking...I feel entirely inadequate...
Verne

[summer007]

Verne, This is Wonderful! Please consider writing a book.  Summer.

[summer007]

P.S. If this goes to book-form one day please leave in the travail and angst, it adds to the readability and gives it that cliffhanger edge. Thanks.

[sfortescue]

I am not sure if I am following this but I will say yes!  To give place to the flesh (animal nature) all the time, without considering the consequences would be a quick road to self destruction. However it may not always be wrong for every person. In every Harry potter book Professor Dumbledor says "Do not go into the forbidden Forest!" Yet in every Harry Potter book Harry ends up going in!!!  He is not suppose to and other students like Nevil longbottom would no doubt "suffer a terrible death." Yet Harry must go that way if he is going to find the answers he is looking for!  Now when it comes to addictions I think I have found different ways to avoid them through communicating with other people! Through art, books, my wife etc..Does this make any sense?

You should not expect to find great spiritual enlightenment in a Harry Potter book -- at least not from the Holy Spirit.  (Maybe it should be called spiritual endarkenment instead.)

Here is an interesting thing to consider.  Technically, the serpent in the garden didn't lie to Eve.  He simply took advantage of Eve's misunderstanding and led her to believe that his words meant something other than what he actually said.  She believed that she would die if she touched the fruit, which was not true.  So when the serpent said that she would not surely die, that was true, provided she didn't go beyond touching the fruit to actually eating it.  As the serpent intended, she misunderstood by thinking that she might get away with eating it.  The sin was in going beyond an objective interaction with the fruit to subjectively experiencing it.  Objective knowledge means simply believing God when he says that something isn't good for us.  Subjective knowledge means that we learn the same thing by painful experience.

Romans 8:1-2 (translated from Russian)
And so there is now no condemnation to those who in Christ Jesus live not according to (the) flesh, but according to (the) spirit, because (the) law of (the) spirit of life in Christ Jesus has freed me from (the) law of sin and of death.

Romans 8:1-2 (Darby)
[There is] then now no condemnation to those in Christ Jesus.  For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set me free from the law of sin and of death.

Hebrews 11:6
But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

Romans 8:32
He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?

Romans 10:17
So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

[vernecarty]

You should not expect to find great spiritual enlightenment in a Harry Potter book -- at least not from the Holy Spirit.  (Maybe it should be called spiritual endarkenment instead.)

Here is an interesting thing to consider.  Technically, the serpent in the garden didn't lie to Eve.  He simply took advantage of Eve's misunderstanding and led her to believe that his words meant something other than what he actually said.  She believed that she would die if she touched the fruit, which was not true.  So when the serpent said that she would not surely die, that was true, provided she didn't go beyond touching the fruit to actually eating it.  As the serpent intended, she misunderstood by thinking that she might get away with eating it.  The sin was in going beyond an objective interaction with the fruit to subjectively experiencing it.  Objective knowledge means simply believing God when he says that something isn't good for us.  Subjective knowledge means that we learn the same thing by painful experience.

An interesting perspective Steve. I would take this even one step further. Eve had lost this contest even before she took the apple. I know this sounds a bit radical but think about it.
You are right that the Serpent beguiled, that is deceived her. Remember the Biblical definition of deception is that it occurs only when someone has previously rejected revealed truth.
Is it possible that Eve sinned even before she took the apple in that she doubted what God had clearly told her and accepted the proposition of the Serpent?
This gives great insight into into the nature of sin.


Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

I started thinking about this after Sondra mentioned that Adam was created with a sin nature. I still do not quite agree with that but as I thought about what Eve did, I realised that Sondra had a very good point.
Perhaps in a techincal way, she did not sin until she actually took a bite, but once she doubted
God (would that be "sin"??!!) she was ripe, so to speak, for the picking...
Verne