Can anyone really ever get beyond "their issues?"

[vernecarty]

This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

So you say that you are tired of being dominated by the works of the flesh?
Are you really?
You say it is time to  get serious and live life in a manner befitting a child of the King?
That is good, for it is what God wants. It is His desired will and you cannot possibly be more enthusiastic about this than He is.

Have you told Him?

Start there.

More later...
Verne

[moonflower2]

P.S. If this goes to book-form one day please leave in the travail and angst, it adds to the readability and gives it that cliffhanger edge. Thanks.

Yeah. I'd like a copy, too.

Hey, let's all start following Verne, now. Brents hasn't posted for a couple days and we need someone who is dependable (and not plagued with OCD). 


 

[M2]

I hope this does not distract/detract from the ongoing discussion which I am enjoying.

Re. support groups that 'support and encourage', and controlled environments where family/church members do not 'judge' you, how does this individual react to adverse circumstances that arise outside his controlled environment?  If he steps outside his door and some obnoxious evangelical is saying, "Herod you have sinned because you have your brother's wife", does he fly off the handle, throw the preacher in jail and cut off his head, regardless if the preacher was right or not.

This is related to the discussion on the welfare thread.  Support groups/controlled environments that only 'support and encourage' do not help the person to deal with real life and criticism objectively.

Marcia

[David Mauldin]

O.K. Harry is a little juvenile, how about Odysseus?  He makes some very bad choices but comes out the other end a better person. I am no expert on the subject of sanctification yet I think there is a lot of psychosis in religious circles. Because of the attitude that we should just be able to get over our issues by faith. Somethings are not that simple. Particularly when the things we want to disappear are really ourselves. "You there! Stop behaving like you!"  It is the quickest way to despair!

[vernecarty]

O.K. Harry is a little juvenile, how about Odysseus?  He makes some very bad choices but comes out the other end a better person. I am no expert on the subject of sanctification yet I think there is a lot of psychosis in religious circles. Because of the attitude that we should just be able to get over our issues by faith. Somethings are not that simple. Particularly when the things we want to disappear are really ourselves. "You there! Stop behaving like you!"  It is the quickest way to despair!

No question about it. It is so easy to parrot all kinds of wonderful truths about what others need to do without having put those truths to the test in one's own life. We know quite a lot. We do quite a little. That is my own problem frankly.
Dispair only results from misplaced hope, which leads to disappointed expectations. Just following a program won't do it. We need a Person.
Verne

[BAT]

O.K. Harry is a little juvenile, how about Odysseus?  He makes some very bad choices but comes out the other end a better person. I am no expert on the subject of sanctification yet I think there is a lot of psychosis in religious circles. Because of the attitude that we should just be able to get over our issues by faith. Somethings are not that simple. Particularly when the things we want to disappear are really ourselves. "You there! Stop behaving like you!"  It is the quickest way to despair!

Good Morning all,

I thought about David's statement above and decided to comment.  
First of all, I am a huge fan of Harry Potter-----not that it matters much in this conversation.
Is there psychosis in religious circles?  I suppose so, because there are people there.  I'm not sure if there are a greater number of psycho's in one religion or another...but if I was going to venture a guess, I'd say that the pagan oriented religions have more freaks.  This is just from my own  personal observations, because here in SLO, we have plenty of lesbian/wiccan/goddess worshipers.  Also, JW's seem to all be depressed, while Mormons are really nice people, in my experience.

Next, the ONLY way anyone person I am aware of, including myself, as gotten over an issue is by faith.  I've never seen medication work for an alchoholic, but I have seen AA work.  I know people who were formerly felons, who are now pastors.  I think there are hundreds of thousands of people who were formerly promiscuous, drunkards, dope smokers, democrats, etc.....all of whom changed rapidly due to faith.

When a person wants "themself" to dissappear, they have a serious problem.  If God wanted us to be gone, why would He save us?  The fact is that our sin was destroying us, and unless He intervened our entire being would have been forever seperated from God.  We would have dissappeared completely.  So I look at the Christian faith, not as being one that lets people stop being themselves, but one that liberates people to be the unique, gifted, interesting people they are.  

I think that when David says, "You there!  Stop behaving like you," it implied that "you" is attempting to do things they really don't want to do.  Let's say my passion in life is painting.  Painting gives me pleasure, it's what I want to do for a living, it's all I think about...it's me.  Now, let's say that I get married to a person who decides that it's a waste of time for me to paint, and that I should be working hard as a network administrator to earn money instead.  I hate my job.  Everyday I think about painting, and art, and I feel like my life is slipping away, like I am trapped, etc.  I read that a Christian is supposed to provide for his family, so I attempt to change.  I try not to think about painting, but I can't help it.....I feel guilty.  I start to lapse, and begin painting on my lunch hour, even sneaking a few brush strokes in on weekends when my wife is away....hopefully you get the picture.

This person will never overcome this issue, ever.  He is attempting to deny and suppress the very person he is, and not only will that make him miserable, it isn't what God wants in the first place.

On the contrary, this person should take a bold step of faith and make the decision to begin painting...maybe part time at first.  

That's the problem with why so many people seem to fail when it comes to overcoming issues.  The fact is they attempt to "overcome" something that they enjoy, and that they really want to do.  In the case of sin, they enjoy the sin.

How come I don't enjoy being drunk?  Why do I have no desire at all to be under the influence of Marijuana or Cocaine?  I used to really like these things, now I am repulsed.  God changed me, that's why.

We are free in Christ.  All things are ours.  All things are lawful, but not all things edify.  The Holy Spirit convicts of sin and righteousness.  I am convinced that is why I have no desire for many of the former things.

Brent

[summer007]

Verne, I hope I'm not to far off trac here. (I know nothing about Harry.P.) But I think what your driving at is mis-placed self-denial. For instance you get saved, you've found the Pearl of great price (Christ) so now you've sold all to but this pearl, sold-out for the Lord, all the self-denial is worth it for the Good-News of God. Well what happens is someone like a pharisee (the Assm for instance) comes along and ladens you with all sorts of rules and bondage, this is now, not so good news, and it gets worse, the more you do the more you fall short so eventually you run from it. The white-washed walls of hypocrisy kill the joy of the Lord. The Lord had never asked you to do certain things. I really love the Lord rebuking the pharisees and then the Lawyer steps in and says Master your offending us too, and he says Woe to you Lawyers. I could be way off here, but the Lord is the model to follow, not all these men who fall short. Summer. (we are changed from Glory to Glory...IICor3, and in I John 3 it does'nt yet appear, but we shall be like Him, in Rom 8 predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son)

[David Mauldin]

Brent, I was thinking more along the line "stop" doing what comes natural. Like lust!  Now I am not advocating a "On The Road" lifestyle of the 60's! Ruth I bet you know some good stories! This I have learned is self destruction, (At least for me it is.) But as you have alluded to we should identify our hearts desire and nurture it in a healthy way. It's different for each person and it is a maturing process we all go through. This thread started out with a different kind of issue in mind.  My ex-fiance is a Born Again Christian who is on disability. I and others (Christians also) believe that she is "working the system"  My ex and I went over and over this. We went into counseling!  She never really was able to face the issue. I could not get her to see that she needed to "grow up" We finally broke it off. Now as I have stated before I don't think my ex could ever really change. Her disablity was psychological, physical, mental, spiritual and on and on. She and it were/are one! It is who she is!  It is unreasonable to think she could just 'believe" If you understood how she was raised you might understand. He mother had her because of an affair with a marride man. Her father never owned her as his daughter. She learned early on that to survive she had to do certain things, behave in a certain way. I really don't think people who are born with and are given much better can understand her. She is the way she is!  She will live her whole life this way. Today I just accept and love her for who she is!  Does this make sense? I would add, that we all have issues!  You, I and everyone have issues that will follow us to the grave!  Why not just accept the fact and learn to live with them!

[BAT]

Brent, I was thinking more along the line "stop" doing what comes natural. Like lust!  Now I am not advocating a "On The Road" lifestyle of the 60's! Ruth I bet you know some good stories! This I have learned is self destruction, (At least for me it is.) But as you have alluded to we should identify our hearts desire and nurture it in a healthy way. It's different for each person and it is a maturing process we all go through. This thread started out with a diifferent kind of issue in mind.  My ex-fiance is a Born Again Christian who is on disability. I and others (Christians also) believe that she is "working the system"  My ex and I went over and over this. We went into counseling!  She never really was able to face the issue. I could not get her to see that she needed to "grow up" We finally broke it off. Now as I have stated before I don't think my ex could ever really change. Her disablity was psychological, physical, mental, spiritual and on and on. She and it were/are one! It is who she is!  It is unreasonable to think she could just 'believe" If you understood how she was raised you might understand. He mother had her because of an affair with a marride man. Her father never owned her as his daughter. She learned early on that to survive she had to do certain things, behave in a certain way. I really don't think people who are born with and are given much better can understand her. She is the way she is!  She will live her whole life this way. Today I just accept and love her for who she is!  Does this make sense?

Yes, it makes perfect sense.  Your ex-fiance is doing what she wants to do.  It may or may not make her happy, but it is better than the alternative....change.  She can't change because she doesnt' want to.  It's just that simple.

With regard to lust.  It's a normal human emotion that has been twisted by the devil and our sin nature.  Young men have a strong sex drive (older ones can too or course) and there is nothing wrong with this. 

I got married at age 23, as you will recall.  Lots of single brothers, were pretty lonely on those bunk beds, but I was sharing a bed with a lovely woman.  Lust was a good thing.  No problem at all. 

I have zero problem with pornography.  I  don't need it, and don't use it.   I don't own any either. 

I do know what it's like to burn with passion and lust, and in that case I recommend that people do what I did...get married.  I also recommend that they exercise self-denial until they are married.  Then they can be happy.

However, if a person just wants instant gratification, they are going to have a problem with lust, and probably pornography.  The more they do this the less likely they are to have a good relationship....and the more likely they are to be impotent or sexually dysfuntional.

They won't be able to change, because they enjoy what they are doing.  Sadly, they become slaves to sin, even when they don't have to be.

So, I know plenty of people who have decisively dealth with issues, big issues.  I also know plenty of people who have dabbled with silly books and support groups and never seem to get anywhere.  The only reason we habitually sin is because we enjoy it.

The only way we can overcome it is by realizing that there is now no condemnation in Christ.  Tired of sin?  Don't walk after the flesh.  You have the power to stop.

There is much more to say about this, but generally I have found that the simple approach is the best.  If you want to learn to ski, you must accept the fact that you will fall down many times....but you stick with it because it's something you want to do.  Seems no different than alchohol or lust.

Brent

[mkoley]

David and others, forgive me if I was unclear.  Unfortunately, my mind can be convoluted at times.  I work two jobs and only come on here during my lunch break.  Often, it's just random thoughts when I post as my mind is going a hundred miles hour, trying to enjoy my break, yet contemplating the remainder tasks for the day.

In hindsight, I guess I shouldn't have lumped those two issues (anger and pornography) together.  Anger is more an outburst of emotion and I think it fits the mold of what David is alluding to.  The later is an addiction, which is something separate.  With or without Christ, I believe we can overcome addictions. Albeit, easier with Christ.  However, I still don't believe my friend will overcome either.  Nonetheless, I still love him to death.

Speaking of the Tree of K & E, why did God have to put it there in the first place?  I heard many reasons why, but none seem to satisfy. 

BAT, quick question for you.  What if someone’s passion is an occupational bartender, or gulp, dealing drugs.  Yes, a stretch, but I think you know what I am getting at.  On a side note, two of my passions are watching sports and weightlifting.  In the assembly, I thought both were taboo and sinful.  Ironically, I was involved in the Assembly from ‘94-‘00.  For a homegrown Nebraska boy who is a die-hard Cornhusker, this was extremely difficult.

That's all for now..I greatly appreciate everyone's input.

[BAT]

BAT, quick question for you.  What if someone’s passion is an occupational bartender, or gulp, dealing drugs.  Yes, a stretch, but I think you know what I am getting at.  On a side note, two of my passions are watching sports and weightlifting.  In the assembly, I thought both were taboo and sinful.  Ironically, I was involved in the Assembly from ‘94-‘00.  For a homegrown Nebraska boy who is a die-hard Cornhusker, this was extremely difficult.

That's all for now..I greatly appreciate everyone's input.

I have no problem with being a bartender.  I went out to dinner on Saturday night, and Suzie had a glass of Zinfandel, while both of us had an after dinner liquour.  A bartender poured them for us, and we thought it was worth paying for. 

As far as drug dealing, that brings up an interesting discussion, but let me put it like this.  Dealing drugs isn't fun, and it is not something that people aspire to.  They do it for two reasons, which are often related: Money and addiction.

Nevertheless, if someone's passion is for criminal activity, they probably aren't going to change, regardless of how much time spent in the Department of Corrections hospitality program. 

Your being told that weights were sinful, along with sports is a perfect example of why "denying self" creates crazy people.  You were attempting to put to death what didn't need to die, and all it did was make you sad and empty. 

Here's another example:  We know a woman who has all sorts of issues.  Yes, she is on welfare now.  She goes to woman's retreats and "hears God speak,"  and she goes forward to pray with people, or be prayed for all the time.  She keeps getting worse, but is able to spout more God-talk per minute than most people, except assembly people.  They could teach her alot about it.

She decided at one retreat that God was calling her to be a singer.  She sucks at singing, however.  She was dissappointed because no one wanted her to sing.  She left and went to another church and began the same dance over there, as far as I know. 

She hates who she is, but likes it far more than the alternative, which is to admit that she is a phoney and has been enjoying her fantasy world.  She would rather do make-believe than change.  She doesn't want to change, and explaining the cross to her would be about as effective as a vacuum cleaner that shoots hair.  (she already knows the cross, and even taught a "breaking free" course at one time)

Brent

[David Mauldin]

Brent A Christain friend of mine treats my ex in a very condesending manner. He treats her like she has to change or she isn't worth his respect. Yet I know this guy pretty good. we use to ride together on weekends and he was my best man. Today he is about 50# overwieght. Of course I have tried to encourage him (I am a big fitness nut, I've lost a lot of wieght and run about 5 miles a day)  But he won't change. Yet he doesn't see it as an issue. I don't either. So why does he treat my ex with such holier than thou attitude?

[vernecarty]

I would add, that we all have issues!  You, I and everyone have issues that will follow us to the grave!  Why not just accept the fact and learn to live with them!

Why not indeed? In fact, many, if not most Christians do.
Your rhetorical question leads nicely into something I wanted to say David.
Have you ever wondered why Paul says if we are not to fulfil the liusts of the flesh, we are to walk, in the Spirit?
Why not jump, or even dance, in the Spirit? No offence to Pentecostals mind you...

WALKING is a vector - characterised by both magnitude and direction.

There is nothing more inimical to the warrior, in his war againt the flesh than aimlessness.

Why not learn to live with them?
If you not going anywhere, that is a perfectly legitimate question.
If you are, the answer is self-evident.
In fact, a more advanced development of this theme calls for the would be victor to not just walk, but run!
But I am getting ahead of myself am I not?  

let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us...

Verne

[mkoley]

Brent & Others, what if the passion wasn't criminal, but undeniably sinful?  Then what?  No specific examples come to mind. 

[BAT]

Brent A Christain friend of mine treats my ex in a very condesending manner. He treats her like she has to change or she isn't worth his respect. Yet I know this guy pretty good. we use to ride together on weekends and he was my best man. Today he is about 50# overwieght. Of course I have tried to encourage him (I am a big fitness nut, I've lost a lot of wieght and run about 5 miles a day)  But he won't change. Yet he doesn't see it as an issue. I don't either. So why does he treat my ex with such holier than thou attitude?

Huh?

What does his weight have to do with it?  Why should he change his weight?
Perhaps the reason he treats your ex the way he does is because he doesn't like her?

I will say this, if you continue to run five mile a day, soon your overweight friend will be able to out run you.  Arthritis my good man.  Moderation!  Exercise in moderation.

Brent