Can anyone really ever get beyond "their issues?"

[editor]

I apoligize for the diversion. ( draw near to God and he will draw near to you)

?? no problem! (He who has The Son has The Life.)  (I AM The Way, The Truth, and The Life)

[summer007]

Really not to stray off-course, but does'nt it seem like in Christs day the people with un-clean spirits/demon possion had the same symptoms of those who are using modern-medicine to control their insanity whether it be hormonal, or chemical or drug induced.This was the question? I promise to stay the course.

[editor]

Really not to stray off-course, but does'nt it seem like in Christs day the people with un-clean spirits/demon possion had the same symptoms of those who are using modern-medicine to control their insanity whether it be hormonal, or chemical or drug induced.This was the question? I promise to stay the course.

Yep, and they got better real quick too.

[summer007]

I believe we overcome/rise-above by living the Abundant Life in Christ enjoying the freedom.( At this point who wants to go back and wallow's in the mire? those who are in bondage, servants of corruption.)

[vernecarty]

I believe we overcome/rise-above by living the Abundant Life in Christ enjoying the freedom.( At this point who wants to go back and wallow's in the mire? those who are in bondage, servants of corruption.)

Simmer you have put your finger on the thing that has me puzzled about a lot of what Sondra has been presenting.
The kind of symptoms that she describes as being the lot of the typical Christian I find strange in the extreme.
No wonder a person experiencing those kinds of things would develop a theology of self-loathing, hence self re-crucifixion.
I have been sorely tempted to talk about the rise of ascetic dualism in the first century as I hear some of these things but I want to keep an open mind.
I can say one thing with great confidence.
Any Christian who approaches his sin with a firm "I will..." or "I will not..." is doomed to failure and I guarantee it.
He is re-subjecting himself to the law of sin and death.
We are not under law but under grace!
In fact the one thing about re-crcifixion theology that has me genuinely puzzled is whether or not those who espouse it can give witness that it has aided them in living a holy life. How do you know when crcifixion of the self-life is complete?
How long does it take? What are the evident results?
Perhaps Sondra can give some insight here.
I am not saying that as Christians we do not have issues we have to address and personal failures that we endure.
But our new life in Christ is one of joy unspeakable and full of glory. I can say before God and men that this has been my lot, praise His holy name! Temptations do come of course, but greater is He that is in us than he that is in the world.
The power for godly living is available to all who want it in my view. God is faithful!
I am trying my best to understand what is being said but I am frankly having a bit of difficulty for the exact reason you have stated in your post. The mire does indeed seem to be a most unattractive place! 
Great thought!
Verne

[summer007]

Yes Verne it appears to me Paul's comparing the Jew with outward circumcision, and the saved with his heart circumcised, and then Paul says what really matters is the New Man in Christ. We don't need to look for trials, they'll surely come our way as the Lord said and then added "Be of good cheer I've overcome the world". And I don't think we suffer forever re: IPeter 5:10 says after you have suffered awhile, not forever. Alot of the walk is by Faith, not leaning on our own understanding. Were running a race, were to lay aside what trips us up, course we may fall, but we get back up, and run.  Summer.

[vernecarty]

Yes Verne it appears to me Paul's comparing the Jew with outward circumcision, and the saved with his heart circumcised, and then Paul says what really matters is the New Man in Christ. We don't need to look for trials, they'll surely come our way as the Lord said and then added "Be of good cheer I've overcome the world". And I don't think we suffer forever re: IPeter 5:10 says after you have suffered awhile, not forever. Alot of the walk is by Faith, not leaning on our own understanding. Were running a race, were to lay aside what trips us up, course we may fall, but we get back up, and run.  Summer.

One of the things that deeper life theolgy often does is to divide the church in multi-tiered ranks of advancement.
George loved to use this for motivation.
I see only two in Scripture - the babe in Christ, and the full grown.
Now I know that logically there is progress between these two extremes.
A lot of what this discussion has to do with is most likely where we are at in our stages of growth in grace in my view...
Verne


Now I say, That the heir, as long as he is a child, differeth nothing from a servant, though he be lord of all;
Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world:
But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,
To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.
And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.




That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine...  But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things,

p.s. It seems to me  that which of the two proffered paradigms offered by Sondra and me you subscribe to will depend on whether you view your Christian audience as children or as sons...how's that for compromise? 

[vernecarty]

Just a comment: (I know your ready to take the plunge) It seems to me alot of the problem is Loving  the World from 1 John 2:15-17 The lust of the eyes, the lust of the flesh and the boastful pride of life. Its a matter of obedience and choice.You may not indulge in all the fleshly sins but could have a horrific problem being boastfully proud.

This is the whole problem with the notion that you can "just say no" to sin. How do you say "no" to pride?
How do you say "no" to lust? The Lord said if you "looked" you are already in trouble, forget about touching.
How do you say "no" to covetousness? Do we understand what Christ was saying when he said that our righteousness must exceed that of the Scribes and the Pharisees?
They conformed strictly to the letter of the law. They could not change what was on the inside!
When you attempt to deal with sin by sheer force of will or regimen of any sort, while some may succeed in an outward confirmation to even a high moral standard, they can do absolutely nothing about the condition of the heart, which is the true source of all transgression, and what God will judge..
You want to overcome your sin? God has to transform you.
He does this by His Holy Spirit. It really is that simple.
Verne

 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord 2 Cor 3:18

p.s. I had what I thought would be some very helpful comments on the theme of transparency and really wanted to take it somewhere  but I am going to leave it alone for now..I don't think its the right tiime. I did not pull that theme out of a hat. I believe it is right there in our Bibles. Everything in its time...I have said enough for the time being I think.

[vernecarty]

We are under the Blood of circumcision until we are under the Blood of the Anointing or Anointed One.  One is for the natural man and the second is for the spiritual man. 

Any Scriptural references for this idea? I have done a fairly exhaustive search on both phrases "blood of circumcision" and "blood of the anointing" and could not find a reference. In both OT and NT anointing is frequently coupled with "oil".
Many agree that this is a typology of the Spirit's empowerment. I agree with this view.

Until we pass over (post circumcision) we are by faith under the Blood of the Lamb.  We are covered by Him until we are cleansed and Anointed with our own anointing.

Does this imply that when we are cleansed and anointed with "our own anointing" we cease to be under the Blood of the lamb by faith?
Verne

[summer007]

Verne, I know nothing about the transparency doctrine. Looking forward to you explaining it. The only reference I ever heard of was when Lee Irons was pounded with it, that was in the 90's. Could it be the clear transparent reality of the Lord? I don't know!  Summer. p.s. You and your Daughter have my Mother's Birthday 9/26. I looked over at the toxic thread where you posted that info. Boy you really ate Matt alive. Too bad he does'nt see the humor, well maybe he does now, these things come with age!

[vernecarty]

Verne, I know nothing about the transparency doctrine. Looking forward to you explaining it. The only reference I ever heard of was when Lee Irons was pounded with it, that was in the 90's. Could it be the clear transparent reality of the Lord? I don't know!  Summer. p.s. You and your Daughter have my Mother's Birthday 9/26. I looked over at the toxic thread where you posted that info. Boy you really ate Matt alive. Too bad he does'nt see the humor, well maybe he does now, these things come with age!

My thinking on transparency comes from 2 Cor. 3:18 and has to do with how the Word of God illuminates (and transforms)our lives.
We often think that the things most visible are the most important. You made a great point a few posts ago about the sin of pride for example which can be totally hidden. I was responding to the idea that self-denial is the Biblical prescription for dealing with our sins. There are things in our lives which are seen only by God. He is the one that makes us transparent!
Verne

  For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. Hebrews 4:12

 p.s A bit busy right now but we will talk some more later...

[editor]

My thinking on transparency comes from 2 Cor. 3:18 and has to do with how the Word of God illuminates (and transforms)our lives.
We often think that the things most visible are the most important. You made a great point a few posts ago about the sin of pride for example which can be totally hidden. I was responding to the idea that self-denial is the Biblical prescription for dealing with our sins. There are things in our lives which are seen only by God. He is the one that makes us transparent!
Verne

  For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. Hebrews 4:12

 p.s A bit busy right now but we will talk some more later...

I just want to point something out here:

I was responding to the idea that self-denial is the Biblical prescription for dealing with our sins.

I don't think it's a correct representation of Sondra's position with the above statement.  As far as I can tell, she is NOT teaching that Self Denial is a way to deal with sin.  She is talking about Self Denial in the context of taking up one's cross; in other words in the context of sanctified living.  That can't be done until sin is dealt with, which is only through Christ's finished work on the cross.


What I understand her position to be is that God's part was that sin was forgiven in Christ, and we were saved, and given new life in Christ.  The candle of our spirits, which was aforetimes put out, is now lit, and it is the Lord.

Self denial, or walking in the spirit---our part--- is one of the means in which to use the spirit to put to death the soul, (seed of corn analogy) in order that our whole body, soul and spirit can be fashioned in Christ's image. 

So, to characterize it the way you did, Verne, is not going to help the discussion much....I could be mistaken, in which case all of this will be cleared up.  Just be careful, on both sides, to accurately represent what the other is saying. 

I made a similiar mistake years ago when I was "disproving" reformed theology.  I misrepresented it in my own mind by assuming that they taught that there was no need to preach to the lost, God would save those He would save, and those that weren't elect would be lost, regardless of how much we preached and labored.  It was easy to reject Reformed theology with that straw man on the other side.  Of course, I remained quite ignorant as to what they really believed, but I sure did win every argument!

I don't know where I first heard of this idea, but somewhere I heard or read that in order to have a really first class debate, both sides must be able to argue their opponents positions accurately and strongly.  Then, the merit of one position over the other becomes apparent, instead of the ability of one debater to play better games with semantics, misrepresentation and straw men.  I'm not saying you're doing that Verne, just encouraging you to make certain you know what she is actually saying.

Same applies to Sondra.

Carry on!

Brent 

[vernecarty]

  I am very sincere.  What do we do with the sin in our lives that holds us in bondage and torment ?

Sondra

I hear you Brent. Your points are well taken.
Just so that all my remarks will be kept in context, here is the specific question that was raised, and to which all my comments have been directed. Please note that the one specific thing Sondra has said in regard to her own query was that we say "no" to our sinful desires, which if I understand correctly, is equivalent to her concept of self-denial.  I maintain that self-denial in reference to "taking up one's cross", does not have in view  as its context, Sondra's oiginal question.
The farthest thing from the mind of one struggling with sin is taking his or anybody else's cross. What he wants is relief!

O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? Romans 7:24


Just because we want something different from what God wants does not necessarily imply that the desire is sinful, so taking up one's cross does not necessariy provide insight as to how the Christian is to deal with his sin. Taking up one's cross means we relinquish our will for His regardless!.
Self-denial is certainly not the same as walking in the Spirit. Ascetics deny self far better than any Westerner could possibly hope to. It may be a chicken or egg first question.
I am simply saying that neither physical, emotional nor psychological discipline is equal to the task of delivering the believer from sin's power.
So what I am saying, I am saying to a person presumably "held in bondage and torment", as per her original question.
If you are walking in the Spirit, the matter of self-denial is irrelevant, so far as sin is concerned!.

Verne

   These have indeed an appearance of wisdom in promoting rigor of devotion and self-abasement and severity to the body, but they are of no value in checking the indulgence of the flesh.  Col. 2:23 RSV 


This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. Gal 5:16

[vernecarty]

  That can't be done until sin is dealt with....
Brent 

This is the entire point!
The BIble does not tell the Christian to conquer his sin, he is told to confess it.
It is God's job to forgive. It is God's job to cleanse.
Uneless you have learned and applied this most fundamental of priniciples, chances are that you will remain a slave. You also run the risk of enslaving others.
This is the legacy of George Geftakys.
Verne
p.s I am interested in hearing what others think that it means to "walk in the Spirit".  This is the key.

[Eulaha L. Long]

Hello Liz!

I promised myself I wasn't going to post on the BB anymore (I agree with Becca-this board is pure POISON!), but I wanted to say hello to you!  My email address is: eulong2000@yahoo.com  I'd really like it if we could maybe chat via email.  I know that when I lived with your folks I wasn't the friendliest person in the universe, but I have wondered about you and your husband and little Jewel (I left the group before your second child was born). 

Eulaha