The Bold and the Fearful --

[tenderhearted]

I think what you are saying is that it is possible to have a zeal that is not according to knowledge.
With this I heartily agree. Passion must have direction, and it must have purpose.
The fact of the matter is, if we love intensely, we cannot help but also hate intensely.
This is fundamental.
You can tell a lot about a person by the object and the intensity of either affection in my view.
While we need wisdom as regards the proper expression of our affections, lukewarmness is the order of the last days I fear...
Verne

I agree with your wisdom in this.

It is also a method and style of listening to the other person.
When expressing an opinion or a feeling.  It is better to use the "I" statements.
When you listen, you acknowledge the feelings first.

By using the "I" statements is acknowledge ownership of that feelings, opinions, then you dont come across as accusationalizing.

I have been told I am too negative and too blunt.
So I have been trying to rub out the rough edges around my character and personality, and speak more postive. Now because I am human, I fail repeatly in this endeavour.
I can be very blunt, but I can go over the boundaries of human dignity and respect towards the other person.
So in a tug of war with my emotions the lessons to be less blunt, and negative, towards the goal of a more positive and compassionate sensitive, is a two step dance for me.

I get passionate about my viewpoints, when I feel that I am cornered, I will act like a crazed pit bull, or I can withdraw into my self, in to a pity party for myself. It is all being human with human emotions.

I learned in the last 8 weeks, with the course I was taking, that I can only change me, I am only responsible for my actions, reactions, feelings. etc. No one can change me, and I cannot change another. I can only change me.

There was a phrase that I learned and it is a very interesting phrase.

Feelings do not come by invitations.
Nor do they go by command.

Think about it.
FEELINGS DO NOT COME BY INVITATIONS
NOR DO THEY GO BY COMMAND.

We all have trigger points that cause us to reacted with our feelings. We dont have the choice of the emotions we have been giving.
It is our choice what we do with those feelings, and the reactions we have with those feelings.
That is why the "I" statements. I am so anger I can punch a hole in the wall.
It is recognizing the feelings. Putting them into words, and maybe taking the edge off them.

It is also been taught:
That changing your mind from what ever is bothering you, can change the feelings.
This I am working on.

It is only relying on God, that work will be successful, It is by letting our natural being take over we run into problems and failures.  This is not weakness, to admit you are human, and the failing of the human nature has on us.

Lenore

[matthew r. sciaini]

Lenore:

Is it possible to talk too much?   

Matthew R. Sciaini

[tenderhearted]

Lenore:

Is it possible to talk too much?   

Matthew R. Sciaini

Thank you Matthew for your question.

I have to say YES and NO.

Yes: If you are trying to listen to someone, really listen, eye contact, body language watching, trying to hear what the other person is saying, listening for tones, feelings, and the words they are coming across.
It is usually feelings that are being said, it is the listener job, to identify those feelings, and the contents of those words. 
To remain silent until  the person who is talking, is finished. It is not the listener job to advice unless the advice is requested.
Only after the listener acknowledged the person feelings, because frequently that is what is needed to have feelings acknowledged. Then to clarify the content of the conversation. Because frequently all the person wants is to have a shoulder to cry one, a listening ear, a friend who knows when to remain silent, give the attention to the one in need.

The No side of the answer to your question is: If a person in need has a life time of remaining silent, those negative emotions that have been subpressed is doing damage to that person.
It is needed to talk them out. Like most depressions is anger inward. So until those negative emotions are truely dealt with by bringing them to the surface, voice, acknowledge, recognized, only then can you let them go. Even in prayer to God, can help them. But some people have even lost God, not in the spiritual form, because God never leaves a Christian, but when the spirit has been broken, even Christian can go way into themselves over some trauma, or even a life time of traumas, that their road back, is needed with God's representatives here on earth.
a phrase I heard a few years ago about a child who required her  Daddy in the room while she slept, even when her Daddy, kept reassuring her, and telling her God was with her.
When the final time she cried out to her Daddy, a frustrated Dad said, " Didnt I tell you God was with you".  The little Girl replied.  But Daddy I need ' GOD WITH SKIN ON".
The little girl Daddy  was God's representative on earth for her.

So many people need GOD WITH SKIN ON  in their lifes to help them overcome. That requires listening effectively, and allowing the person in need to be able to freely express themselves with out fear of judgement, unsolicited advice, or put downs. 

In many ways we need to ask ourselves in cluding me.

AM I BEING GOD WITH SKIN ON WITH THE PEOPLE THAT SURROUND OUR LIVES.

Thanks for the question Matthew.
I hope I sufficiently answered it for you.

Lenore

[tenderhearted]

Every experienced Christian knows failure.  That doesn't mean that "overcoming" is impossible.  It just means that our natural man is still too strong and needs to be dealt with.  God is up to the job, I might add.  Mark seems to believe and suggest that "perfection" is never failing and therefore makes it ok to relax and "float" or something ?? - because it is impossible to get there at all.  I am sure he is being a faithful witness for where he is, but the scriptures teach that "we can be angry and sin not" for example.  I don't believe, as Christians, that we simply have no recourse, but to pick a tire iron and go after the other person.  I don't buy that AT ALL!!!  A person who does this has a serious psychosis and needs to get some counceling, IMO.  To use this example as a "norm" when discussing sinful behavior, IMO, is way outside normal.  That is close to murder.  How's that for laying guilt on someone?  Well, if the shoe fits....

Does that mean we will never, ever, ever, ever blow it?  No, I don't think so, but I do think that that natural man can be given a significant blow through the working of God the Holy Spirit over time.  Anger, let go, will grow.  He did it with Job, with Jacob, with Moses, etc.  Moses killed a man out of temper.  God changed him didn't he?  Moses is recorded as having "sinned" again with his lips - so we know he was human, but his whole demeanor changed after the 40 years on the backside of the desert.

I AM SEEING A SERIOUS PROBLEM WITH ANGER IN MEN ON THIS BOARD.  Everyone has anger, but it seems that some of the men on this board admit to having and maintaining AN SPIRIT OF ANGER and justifying it as normal.  Just stopping the outward behavior doesn't defeat the problem.  Supressing anger only gives refuge to that life.  Death to that very life in self is the only cure.  Otherwise, it will only manifest with a new face the next time, but it is that same monster.

   
This is syrupy "Eastern Religion" talk and not practical Christian teachings!!  Mark is confused as to the difference.  Mark and others are trying to convince that walking in peace consistently is impossible.  They are trying to convince us that by ignoring our inner life is the way to peace.  That is ridiculous and contradicts the scriptures. 

"Fight the fight of faith."  That doesn't imply sitting back and just "letting faith happen."  Scriptures are clear and the majority of Christians know the well proven fact that it is through death that we have life.  Mark is perhaps trying to say that this death is not a beating up of ones self.  (oh so Californian to say it like this. - but that's what I hear him trying to say).  He does, however, state below that death to sinful behavior is required or possible.  I strongly disagree with this (see below). 

If you walk in the spirit you will not satisfy the lusts of the flesh."  Walking in the spirit is a choice, not a "floating" through life.  The spirit is a location and it has real things that we must clothe ourselves in such as Peace and Joy and Confidence in God.  We "put them on" according to scriptures.

He first refers to the sin of "getting out a tire iron" to hurt the guy which is a whole different ballgame than what he refers to here...simply being angry.  Good salesmanship, but I see the distinction very clearly.  There is no other place to process guilt and anger besides inwardly.     I conclude that Mark learned how to deal with his guilt, shame, failure, and anger - is the point.  I don't see that location has a thing to do with it.  We process everything we do, think, are...INWARDLY.  We are spirits who have a soul - right?  The only question is WHERE inwardly.  The natural man is weak to deal with sin.  The Holy Spirit is simply not located in the natural man.  The Holy Spirit only works through the human spirit and the human spirit then has dominion and is empowered by the Holy Spirit and this only as the Will of the natural man yields by choice. 

Matt 26:41  Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak. 

The life of God cannot come through any other means.
 
John 4:23-24
23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

Now the Lord condemned the Pharisees for "reasoning in their hearts" which tells me that reasoning and logic fails God's spiritual purposes.  Rather it is through SPIRITUAL UNDERSTANDING of God's ways, God's will, God's mind, etc. that we can get out of ourselves and follow His ways.  To walk in the spirit is to walk in His Spirit or His ways of thinking according to His priority of Love.  This is objective and not subjective.

   
Jesus, as Mark call Him, I call Him Lord, came to save his self life - Mark states.  Well, yes and no.  I believe He came to regenerate it through the power of the Holy Spirit working in and through the individual's human spirit.  There's only one access to God and that is through the human spirit.  Our soul is our natural man...the man of the flesh is in charge until many battles are fought. 

We must go through the rigors of the battles to learn.  God takes us through process or inner REGENERATION of our natural man through death.  The war is fought "battle by battle."
                                             
Sondra

WOW Sondra:

What a good gospel message!!

Great job in relaying it.

This is a honest question?
--Are you taking courses in this at a university, because you would be excellent.


Lenore

[M2]

Hi Sondra,

Sorry I do not have any degrees or official credentials.  I can't even use my computer programmer's degree without some serious retraining.  So please forgive me if I don't appear to be very smart.

I understood that MarkC was saying that all of the trying to make oneself spiritiual only built up frustration because of our total inability to do so.  When he relaxed and accepted his spiritual condition then he could let God work in him.  I know this is too simple and I do not have all the Scripture references to support my arguments, but I hope you will consider that, though I am not a Thd., there might be some validity to what I am saying.

I'm heading over to another thread now.  Maybe I'll bump into Yarblonski on the way and we can commiserate together.

Marcia

P.S.
Matt S, what credentials do you have?  It might be useful to know just in case I want to consider your opinion in the future.  And don't say that you have been a friend and that that is good enough, because if you don't have any initials after your name, even quoting the Scripture might not be sufficient.  Oh how I long for the good old days when we were just plain readers on our knees before the Lord and our list of Thd LLD's did not count for anything.
Marcia

P.P.S.
Brent, I think Quincy and you would have been real good pals.
MM

[M2]

Thank you Matthew for your question.

I have to say YES and NO.

Yes: If you are trying to listen to someone, really listen, eye contact, body language watching, trying to hear what the other person is saying, listening for tones, feelings, and the words they are coming across.
It is usually feelings that are being said, it is the listener job, to identify those feelings, and the contents of those words. 
To remain silent until  the person who is talking, is finished. It is not the listener job to advice unless the advice is requested.
Only after the listener acknowledged the person feelings, because frequently that is what is needed to have feelings acknowledged. Then to clarify the content of the conversation. Because frequently all the person wants is to have a shoulder to cry one, a listening ear, a friend who knows when to remain silent, give the attention to the one in need.

The No side of the answer to your question is: If a person in need has a life time of remaining silent, those negative emotions that have been subpressed is doing damage to that person.
It is needed to talk them out. Like most depressions is anger inward. So until those negative emotions are truely dealt with by bringing them to the surface, voice, acknowledge, recognized, only then can you let them go. Even in prayer to God, can help them. But some people have even lost God, not in the spiritual form, because God never leaves a Christian, but when the spirit has been broken, even Christian can go way into themselves over some trauma, or even a life time of traumas, that their road back, is needed with God's representatives here on earth.
a phrase I heard a few years ago about a child who required her  Daddy in the room while she slept, even when her Daddy, kept reassuring her, and telling her God was with her.
When the final time she cried out to her Daddy, a frustrated Dad said, " Didnt I tell you God was with you".  The little Girl replied.  But Daddy I need ' GOD WITH SKIN ON".
The little girl Daddy  was God's representative on earth for her.

So many people need GOD WITH SKIN ON  in their lifes to help them overcome. That requires listening effectively, and allowing the person in need to be able to freely express themselves with out fear of judgement, unsolicited advice, or put downs. 

In many ways we need to ask ourselves in cluding me.

AM I BEING GOD WITH SKIN ON WITH THE PEOPLE THAT SURROUND OUR LIVES.

Thanks for the question Matthew.
I hope I sufficiently answered it for you.

Lenore

Matt, I know that this was addressed to you and I am not answering for you, just commenting with my own opinion.

Re. the YES.  What if the listener fails in even one aspect e.g. she starts talking before the talker has finished talking?

Re. the NO.  What does GOD WITH SKIN ON look like?  IOW how do I know that the person is giving an accurate expression of God?

My observation, no degrees and initials and all, is that if the listener is really nice to the talker, then the listener can feed all kinds of garbage to the talker, and the talker will soak it up, only because the talker really just wanted a 'nice' time and 'truth' really does not matter.

Marcia M2 MM MGM

[editor]

Matt, I know that this was addressed to you and I am not answering for you, just commenting with my own opinion.

Re. the YES.  What if the listener fails in even one aspect e.g. she starts talking before the talker has finished talking?

Re. the NO.  What does GOD WITH SKIN ON look like?  IOW how do I know that the person is giving an accurate expression of God?

My observation, no degrees and initials and all, is that if the listener is really nice to the talker, then the listener can feed all kinds of garbage to the talker, and the talker will soak it up, only because the talker really just wanted a 'nice' time and 'truth' really does not matter.

Marcia M2 MM MGM

I like this a I lot.

I studied over this, and did a little reseach on the traditional psychotherapy models, and considered the patient/therapist relationship.  After careful consideration, I decided that I want to be the one in need.  I want everyone to listen to me, and acknowledge what I say to be good.  I don't want any advice from any of you.  If I feel like talking, good people everywhere will listen to me.  If I feel like being silent, they'll be happy.  If get angry and enraged, good people everywhere will understand that it's just a problem I'm working through, and will love me even more, because they get to be God's representative.

You can make a lot of mistakes as the "healthy" person: speaking before they are done talking, misinterpreting body language and tone, not recognizing feelings that are being communicated...not to mention giving advice that isn't asked for! There's just too much risk, and too much responsibility there for me.  Being God with Skin On, is very difficult, and I don't see why I should be the one to do it. 

On the other hand, I don't see how you can go wrong by being needy. I think it's better to be the one who NEEDS God with Skin On. As a needy person, the burden of getting people to understand me lies with them.  Others must keep silent while I speak, and carefully follow along, taking a test at the end to make sure that they have clarity with regard to what I was saying.  I don't ever have to be afraid, or suffer judgement, and no one is going to put me down.  That's why I think it's best to be needy.

Don't worry everyone, I'm not going to act out my new identity....I merely say it as a comment on what was posted below.

I say we abolish the word "needy" and use "extra-special" instead.  It more accurately describes the benefits a person gets by being needy.

Brent

[tenderhearted]

I like this a I lot.

I studied over this, and did a little reseach on the traditional psychotherapy models, and considered the patient/therapist relationship.  After careful consideration, I decided that I want to be the one in need.  I want everyone to listen to me, and acknowledge what I say to be good.  I don't want any advice from any of you.  If I feel like talking, good people everywhere will listen to me.  If I feel like being silent, they'll be happy.  If get angry and enraged, good people everywhere will understand that it's just a problem I'm working through, and will love me even more, because they get to be God's representative.

You can make a lot of mistakes as the "healthy" person: speaking before they are done talking, misinterpreting body language and tone, not recognizing feelings that are being communicated...not to mention giving advice that isn't asked for! There's just too much risk, and too much responsibility there for me.  Being God with Skin On, is very difficult, and I don't see why I should be the one to do it. 

On the other hand, I don't see how you can go wrong by being needy. I think it's better to be the one who NEEDS God with Skin On. As a needy person, the burden of getting people to understand me lies with them.  Others must keep silent while I speak, and carefully follow along, taking a test at the end to make sure that they have clarity with regard to what I was saying.  I don't ever have to be afraid, or suffer judgement, and no one is going to put me down.  That's why I think it's best to be needy.

Don't worry everyone, I'm not going to act out my new identity....I merely say it as a comment on what was posted below.

I say we abolish the word "needy" and use "extra-special" instead.  It more accurately describes the benefits a person gets by being needy.

Brent

If you take a look at the story I was relaying.

The God with Skin on was the little girl's Daddy. Because the little girl couldn't see God, and in her innocents, she was looking for God's earthly representative, which in a child eyes, is the parent who will protect them, nurture them, love them, etc.

Frequently people who have special requirements due to lives blows that have send them to the bottom of the pit of life.  God with skin on  is just being God's representatives on earth.
The ones who will love you, the ones who will accept you, the ones who will be there.
Whether it is a sunday school teacher that a child can run to for comfort; or Christian mentor for guidance, or even a school teacher who guides a child in learning their ABC's.
There are many Biblical examples of people representating God with Skin on.
In one of Sondra postings, those are the ones who go into the prison, or give a cup of cold water, etc.

God with skin on is those who try to follow the example of Jesus did when he was on earth.
Frequently non Christians have shown more Christian charity to people, that Christians.
God is using these people to teach us about charity and love.

Just thinking outloud, and sharing my opinions.
Lenore

[Mark C.]

 I just cannot go along with leaving God's work in the minds of people as a failure.  It isn't possible to live a godly life....we have no choice but to pick up a tire iron and go after people with the intension of physical murder....people bragging about being cold-blooded killers, etc.  Anger management doesn't manage too well.  The death of the cross to that angry man is the only avenue of escape from the manifested behavior.  WE CANNOT CHANGE OUR BEHAVIOR - as Mark teaches in that post.  We can only die a death that gives the spirit man the control and that is the only access to the power of God's Spirit.  The will must, through love for God and His ways and His mind, YIELD to THAT WHICH IS SPIRITUAL or the spirit man's control.

Sondra

Sondra,

  Either I am incapable of clearly articulating my point, or you are able to read into my posts' things that I have not intended---- You are way, way off in your opinions re. what I wrote.

  I never said that the Christian life was one of constant failure and defeat.  The "tire iron" incident was meant to demonstrate that GG "higher life" teaching was what led to the flesh being out of control, vs a life truly under the control of the HS.

  I most surely believe that our faith demands strong effort on our part to both resist sin and to choose godliness.

  The error of GG "higher life" teaching was that the Spirit must control the inner life via an inner meditative discipline and an outer subjection to the "government of God", which was Assembly leadership/vision.

  It was via these 'tricky inner doings', and submission to God's govt., that we were supposed to manipulate God into releasing an inner surge of spiritual (really just emotion) strength within to "overcome."  My point in the previous post is that God does not work this way in our lives and that instead we must learn to be active in our faith.

  As most Assembly members, I was dishonest re. my true life experiences, and struggled to hide my failure from myself and others.  I agree that this can make for some serious psychological problems and one's for which former Assembly members can suffer for many years after being out of it. (I don't like to use psychological terms, such as psychotic, but if you would like to discuss this I could proffer an opinion )

  Another key to GG's false holiness concept is the removal of grace as the operative principle.  We have been given a new life in Christ and it is forever ours because of the work of Christ on the cross.

   Searching within for a means to actualize that freely given life is to look in the wrong place and creates a distance between us and God.  We must believe that God has done everything to provide for complete eternal security.

 This "perfect love that casts out all fear" of failure and produces a peaceful heart within and this will make for much more success with our attitudes and behavior.

  God "cleanes our hearts by faith":  This faith is not a "daily reckoning faith" but by our initial faith in Christ--- "call not unclean what God has made holy."  We need to believe this, and stop introspecting, and focus on what we have control over--- attitudes and behavior.

  You'll be happy to know that I have not acted on my before mentioned road rage tendicies since leaving the Assembly.  My understanding of a completed salvation has taken much of the anger our of my heart, and though I may begin to react to road idiots, I am no longer suffering from "psychosis" .

  BTW, GG suffered from a serious road rage problem where he actually got out of his car and scuffled with other drivers!   There's a good demonstration of what his "higher life" teaching did for him!

                                                                   God Bless,  Mark C.

   

[editor]

Sondra,

  Either I am incapable of clearly articulating my point, or you are able to read into my posts' things that I have not intended---- You are way, way off in your opinions re. what I wrote.

  I never said that the Christian life was one of constant failure and defeat.  The "tire iron" incident was meant to demonstrate that GG "higher life" teaching was what led to the flesh being out of control, vs a life truly under the control of the HS.

  I most surely believe that our faith demands strong effort on our part to both resist sin and to choose godliness.

  The error of GG "higher life" teaching was that the Spirit must control the inner life via an inner meditative discipline and an outer subjection to the "government of God", which was Assembly leadership/vision.

  It was via these 'tricky inner doings', and submission to God's govt., that we were supposed to manipulate God into releasing an inner surge of spiritual (really just emotion) strength within to "overcome."  My point in the previous post is that God does not work this way in our lives and that instead we must learn to be active in our faith.

  As most Assembly members, I was dishonest re. my true life experiences, and struggled to hide my failure from myself and others.  I agree that this can make for some serious psychological problems and one's for which former Assembly members can suffer for many years after being out of it. (I don't like to use psychological terms, such as psychotic, but if you would like to discuss this I could proffer an opinion )

  Another key to GG's false holiness concept is the removal of grace as the operative principle.  We have been given a new life in Christ and it is forever ours because of the work of Christ on the cross.

   Searching within for a means to actualize that freely given life is to look in the wrong place and creates a distance between us and God.  We must believe that God has done everything to provide for complete eternal security.

 This "perfect love that casts out all fear" of failure and produces a peaceful heart within and this will make for much more success with our attitudes and behavior.

  God "cleanes our hearts by faith":  This faith is not a "daily reckoning faith" but by our initial faith in Christ--- "call not unclean what God has made holy."  We need to believe this, and stop introspecting, and focus on what we have control over--- attitudes and behavior.

  You'll be happy to know that I have not acted on my before mentioned road rage tendicies since leaving the Assembly.  My understanding of a completed salvation has taken much of the anger our of my heart, and though I may begin to react to road idiots, I am no longer suffering from "psychosis" .

  BTW, GG suffered from a serious road rage problem where he actually got out of his car and scuffled with other drivers!   There's a good demonstration of what his "higher life" teaching did for him!

                                                                   God Bless,  Mark C.

Count me as another person who has yet to see anyone actually "grow" from Deeper/Higher Life teachings.  The vast majority of people I meet who are really into this stuff are just plain strange.  Most of them go from church to church, never finding one that does it right, and eventually end up having little to no fellowship with other believers.

In almost every case---no exceptions come to mind----the strict devotee's of the Deeper Life cannot see, or bear to hear about anything negative about themselves. 

There is this one woman, who lives near here, who attends three or four churches sporadically.  She will be absent from one for months at a time, and then show up at a women's Bible study armed with literature and a strong personal testimony about how God is getting such great victory in her life.  She creeps everyone out, and no one has any respect for her, due to a number of good reasons.  However, this woman is convinced she is a spiritual giant! 

If someone tries to tell her to cool it, she teaches them about how the natural man is at odds with the spiritual man, then when the "natural man" in the woman she is justifying herself to isn't "instructed," she gets angry and leaves in a huff, laying blame on the leadership of the church for not teaching the cross.  This pattern repeats itself in other churches, and has for a long time.

There's no talking with her at all, she's far too spiritual.

Definitely and extreme example, but one that I think is a clear representation of the majority of people who are really into the Deeper Life.

Brent

[M2]

If you take a look at the story I was relaying.

The God with Skin on was the little girl's Daddy. Because the little girl couldn't see God, and in her innocents, she was looking for God's earthly representative, which in a child eyes, is the parent who will protect them, nurture them, love them, etc.

Frequently people who have special requirements due to lives blows that have send them to the bottom of the pit of life.  God with skin on  is just being God's representatives on earth.
The ones who will love you, the ones who will accept you, the ones who will be there.
Whether it is a sunday school teacher that a child can run to for comfort; or Christian mentor for guidance, or even a school teacher who guides a child in learning their ABC's.
There are many Biblical examples of people representating God with Skin on.
In one of Sondra postings, those are the ones who go into the prison, or give a cup of cold water, etc.

God with skin on is those who try to follow the example of Jesus did when he was on earth.
Frequently non Christians have shown more Christian charity to people, that Christians.
God is using these people to teach us about charity and love.

Just thinking outloud, and sharing my opinions.
Lenore

Sorry Lenore.  This has not enlightened any more that your original.  You've managed to say the same thing, but with more words.  The reason you even brought up the story about the child was to illustrate a point about how you felt that we adults should treat you.  My question still remains unanswered, What does 'God with Skin on' look like to you?  If I were to read Matthew 23 and only Matthew 23 I would get quite a distorted picture of what 'Christ with Skin on' looks like, don't you think??   Even the apostles and disciples were disappointed, for a time, in Jesus when He did not seem to fulfill their pre-conceived notion of His purpose for coming to earth.

Marcia

[M2]

The main reason I referred Lenore to Mark's post was to show Lenore that all her 'trying' was going to end in defeat and frustration.

Sondra knows that I disagree with her re. her deeper life teaching.  However, at least I can have an honest discussion with Sondra, conniptions and all, without her trying to distract me with how unsuppotive I am for not agreeing with her.

What I am irked about is the fact that the very same 'false spirituality' that we experienced in the assembly, is allowed to go unchecked just because the person now spewing it is a 'wounded' one and crossing her would be unsupportive.  We end up with being the same hypocrites we were under a tyrant system, because we have swung the pendulum to the other extreme.

I can find posts from this BB to illustrate my point, but have not yet taken the time to do so.

Marcia

[editor]

Sorry Lenore.  This has not enlightened any more that your original.  You've managed to say the same thing, but with more words.  The reason you even brought up the story about the child was to illustrate a point about how you felt that we adults should treat you.  My question still remains unanswered, What does 'God with Skin on' look like to you?  If I were to read Matthew 23 and only Matthew 23 I would get quite a distorted picture of what 'Christ with Skin on' looks like, don't you think??   Even the apostles and disciples were disappointed, for a time, in Jesus when He did not seem to fulfill their pre-conceived notion of His purpose for coming to earth.

Marcia

Extra special people need to be treated extra special, according to the extra special.  I don't happen to agree.

Children should be allowed to demand anything from their parents....and they should get it.  Why? Because parents exist to wait on their children.  This is what a spoiled child will tell you, by their words and actions.

Other people exist to help the extra special.  Extra special people assume that others are there for them, in the same way we assume the law of gravity, or that the lights will go on when we hit the switch.  When this doesn't happen, the extra special get really angry and upset, just like a spoiled child.

The extra special are really important, because without them, us "normal" folk wouldn't be able to act like Jesus.  Who would we give food and shelter to, if we didn't have homeless, lazy bums?  Who would we visit in prison if we didn't have rapists and murderers?  

I look at this stuff totally differently.  The little baby needs love, support, pretty much everything.  However, a resonsible parent teaches their children to grow up into responsible, productive, independent people.  Buckling to their demand that "daddy" be in the room with them when they sleep is teaching them to be bossy, self-centered and cowardly.  It's the wrong thing to do.  

If I have a view of the world, in which my purpose is the meet nice people and receive charity from them....I am a beggar.
If I have a view of the world in which my purpose is to find needy people, and give them free stuff, while keeping them at arms length, then I am cruel.

Jesus said,  "Take up thy bed and walk.  He didn't say,  "these folks here will help you, feed you, carry your stuff for you, and treat you well.  You may find that in a long time, you'll feel better, at which time may you could carry part of your bed."

Brent

[editor]

The main reason I referred Lenore to Mark's post was to show Lenore that all her 'trying' was going to end in defeat and frustration.

Sondra knows that I disagree with her re. her deeper life teaching.  However, at least I can have an honest discussion with Sondra, conniptions and all, without her trying to distract me with how unsuppotive I am for not agreeing with her.

What I am irked about is the fact that the very same 'false spirituality' that we experienced in the assembly, is allowed to go unchecked just because the person now spewing it is a 'wounded' one and crossing her would be unsupportive.  We end up with being the same hypocrites we were under a tyrant system, because we have swung the pendulum to the other extreme.

I can find posts from this BB to illustrate my point, but have not yet taken the time to do so.

Marcia

Just keep silent, and let God correct it.  If you speak up, it will just be self. 

In the Assembly, we learned to keep quiet and not speak up.  I think it's time we learned the same lesson here.

Brent

[tenderhearted]

God with Skin on -

who was our great example here.

Jesus walked the earth, Jesus was God's earthly representative of God to the world.

1Peter 2:21 NKJV

For to this your were called, because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example,
that you should follow His Steps:


There are verse in the letters of Paul, giving the same advice, follow Christ example.

We are God's earthly representatives.

Any Christian has a potential to shine God's love to the world, show God's mercy to the world, show God's grace to the world.

2 Cor. 3: 16 to 18

VS: 18:
But we all, with unveiled face, beholding 'as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as by the Spirit of the Lord.


Conclusion:
Hebrews 12:1-2
VS: 1
Therefore, we also, since we re surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside evey weight, and the sin which so easily ensnares us, and let us run with endurance the reace that is set before us.

Looking unto Jesus the author, and finisher of our faith, who for the joy that was set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.

Hebrews 1:14:
Pursue peace with all people and holiness without which no one will see the Lord.

Hebrew 1:15

An example that author of Hebrews told us to do:
Hebrews 13: 1-3

Lenore