What the &*%#@ (Bleep) Do We Know?

[Oscar]

Folks,

Regarding the "Just a Christian" claim. 

During the 19th century there was a strong current of "restorationism" in the Protestant church. 

There have been such periods all through Church history.  In the 19th century the spread of literacy, the availability of affordable Bibles, and the rising tide of religious and intellectual freedom let to the trickle becoming a river, so to speak.

I grew up in a restorationist church.  I was "just a Christian" long before I ever heard of GG.  There were millions of "just Christians" before GG was born.   

I grew up in the Christian Church/Church of Christ churches that came out of the Campbellite movement that began about 1825.

Believe it or not, Mormonism is actually a splinter off of restorationism!  They believe that God revived the office of the apostle and gave Smith the true story of the early Church.  They see themselves as holding to the true apostolic teaching!

Of course, they are heretical...but restorationist none the less.

In fact, one of Smith's most loyal followers, I think it was Parley Pratt, was converted to Mormonism out of the Campbellite movement. 

So, whatever GG may or may not have done, the "just Christians" idea was not some scheme he dreamed up to get what he wanted.  He learned it from the PB's.

Thomas Maddux

[summer007]

So where does the no accounting of the Lords Treasury system come into play? Is that P.B. too? I would think the leader would want to be like Paul in that Paul kept his Tent making job and recieved some gifts. If GG wanted to be a real good example to the brethren he could of kept his Insurance salesmen job and maybe a gift of a ticket for travels no need for hotel money he stayed with brethren right. And if he insisted the "work" load would be impossible to keep his f.t. job, then at least an acoounting  would of been in order, an appointed treasurer to at least confirm amounts recieved and paid out say they took in 2m GG would of recieved say 1.7 m his sons say100k each 40k to 2 full-time "workers" and say 20k to the work here and abroad.! I know they paid for the building rents, but does anyone  know what else was purchased? ? If he really wanted a good Testimony he'd of kept emaculent records to show to anyone wanting to know where their tithes and offerings were being spent!  Summer.

[Oscar]

Just a quick question. Dave I hope you don't mind I did'nt see the Movie. Do any of you practice Yoga? I know alot of the gyms offer Yoga classes and alot of Christians go and don't seem to have a problem with the basic class, yet after their bored with that level they seem to advance people to the next level with more religion "third eye blind" type of thing. I think it gives Satan a foot-hold or a toe in the door. I've never taken Yoga and have no interest in taking these "exercise classes". So any of you Yogi followers or Hindu's in regard to P.E.?  Thanks Summer.

Summer,

Hindu's believe that only one thing exists.  Brahman, the all encompassing, infinite, impersonal Being.  Individual souls are merely parts of Brahman that have somehow lost their consciousness of their unity with infinite being.

So, according to these folks, our human experience of personhood is a sort of "dream" that we need to wake up from.  It is "maya", illusion.

They believe that at the roots of our being we are Atman which is Brahman.   This is what Hinduistic New Age folks like Shirly Maclain mean when they say "I am god, you are god."

The goal of Yoga is to penetrate the layers of our illusory personaity and unite our consciousness with Brahman, so that we can realize our Atman-Brahman unity.

Of course, zillions of ignorant westerners just think it is a way to relax.  And, some forms of Yoga do use stretching exercises that are beneficial to bodily health.   But, since our bodies don't really exist, why bother?  

Thomas Maddux

[Oscar]

So where does the no accounting of the Lords Treasury system come into play? Is that P.B. too? I would think the leader would want to be like Paul in that Paul kept his Tent making job and recieved some gifts. If GG wanted to be a real good example to the brethren he could of kept his Insurance salesmen job and maybe a gift of a ticket for travels no need for hotel money he stayed with brethren right. And if he insisted the "work" load would be impossible to keep his f.t. job, then at least an acoounting  would of been in order, an appointed treasurer to at least confirm amounts recieved and paid out say they took in 2m GG would of recieved say 1.7 m his sons say100k each 40k to 2 full-time "workers" and say 20k to the work here and abroad.! I know they paid for the building rents, but does anyone  know what else was purchased? ? If he really wanted a good Testimony he'd of kept emaculent records to show to anyone wanting to know where their tithes and offerings were being spent!  Summer.

Once again Summer, GG relied on PB teachings and traditions.

If you will remember, whenever he talked about them he always said that they had "lost their vision".

Modern PB's keep the same records and accounting that other churches do.

But GG adopted the most extreme, mystical traditions of the early PB's and saw them as the "vision" he wanted to follow. 

He had some OT bible verses that he relied on.  He brushed the teaching of Paul aside on this basis.

Not a good idea, but certainly not original to GG.

Thomas Maddux

[summer007]

Although it says, "Thou shalt not muzzel the ox while he treads out the corn and he who preaches the gospel should make his living from the gospel" from I Cor 9. The lack of accountability is evidence this was/is a con-job pure and simple, he'd of never done any of this with accountability, let alone for Free!  Summer.

[Oscar]

Although it says, "Thou shalt not muzzel the ox while he treads out the corn and he who preaches the gospel should make his living from the gospel" from I Cor 9. The lack of accountability is evidence this was/is a con-job pure and simple, he'd of never done any of this with accountability, let alone for Free!  Summer.

Summer,

George ascribed to the Pietistic/Deeper Life/Plymouth Brethren "typological" interpretation of the Bible.  So, the OT verses were frequently considered to give better guidance to modern Christians than the NT.

If you read 2 Kings 12:9-15, you will see GG's model for finances.

In verse 9 you have the "box", the "Lord's Treasury".

In verse 10 you have the counting that the LB's did each Sunday night.

In verse 11 you see that the money was "weighed out into the hands of those who did the work, who had the oversight of the house of the Lord; and they paid it out to the carpenters and the builders who worked on the house of the Lord."

In verse 15 it says, "Moreover, they did not require an accounting from the men in whose hand they gave the money to pay those who did the work, for they dealt faithfully."

He taught this openly.   I heard him preach on it a number of times.

He once told me some stories of some pretty petty things that he saw and experienced in his younger days at the hands of church boards.   Elders demanding minute accountability from poorly paid church employees, humiliating and pressuring them.

In the early days of the "work" and the assembly in Fullerton, there wasn't really a significant income from the "box".
Maybe $200-300 a month at most.

Betty pretty much supported him during the early years.  The big $$$ came later after other assemblies were established and after people graduated from college and started careers.

He was making good $$ at the time I met him in 1969.  But he was doing Christian work "for free".

When Tim and David were little boys, GG was involved in gospel outreach to Mormons.  Several times a year he would leave on Friday night, drive to Salt Lake City, preach on Saturday and Sunday, then drive home for work on Monday.

The first time I ever saw him he was working with International Student Ministries.  "For free".

George has fallen and has sinned greviously, and has continued in his sin for a long time.

But Jesus admonished us to "judge righteous judgement."   

Thomas Maddux

[summer007]

Tom, What may have worked for temple repairs with ancient Jews in B.C. isnt going to work in the 21st century. It says they were "Faithful" the Assm situation with GG was'nt the case he could'nt even be faithful to his wife way before it started as history has shown. Granted most of us on board have done plenty of Christian work for Free, and are continually soliicitated to do volunteer work for free, so GG did some free work I stand corrected on that one. Well I don't agree with any of these Assm practices and it really does'nt matter to me I left along time ago because I did'nt like it.  Summer.

[Oscar]

Summer,

I agree with you. 

My point was that the way GG read the Bible, (which btw is the way many who post here STILL read their bibles), was subjective and based on a false mysticism.

Within GG's interpretive system....he was right!   

My other point was that although GG has fallen into wicked behavior, let's rebuke and condemn what he actually did or is still doing!

Thomas Maddux

[David Mauldin]

  Last night Law and Order did their revised version of the recent tragedy that took place in the Children of God cult. When I read and hear about these kind of tragedy's I have no problem understanding how they can happen. While in Seattle a former member of "The Way" attanded the VBS. She told me that "The Way" disbanded just like the assembly because of sexual failure amongst the leaders. I allso have a friend who is a former Member ofthe LDS church. We have a tremendous connection in that we both can totally relate to one another.

[Mark Kisla]

 

My point was that the way GG read the Bible, (which btw is the way many who post here STILL read their bibles), was subjective and based on a false mysticism.

Tom,
Could you go into a little more detail how many still read the Bible GG style. In hindsight I can see how many bonehead decisions have been / can be made applying the Bible this way.
For me personally the Book of Proverbs has been a great practical blessing to my life.

[vernecarty]

Summer,

I agree with you. 

My point was that the way GG read the Bible, (which btw is the way many who post here STILL read their bibles), was subjective and based on a false mysticism.

Within GG's interpretive system....he was right!   

My other point was that although GG has fallen into wicked behavior, let's rebuke and condemn what he actually did or is still doing!

Thomas Maddux

I have to say that my many conversations with you on this subject have been quite helpful.
While you and I probably disagree as to the nature and relevance of Biblical typology ( I get the impression that you think all typology is mysticism), I have developed a healthy respect for your point of how this can be abused. In fact I find myself caring less about what folk say about spiritual matters. Vain talkers abound. I am mosre interested in the kind of lives we live. There is something particularly offensive about people pretending to handle deep spiritual things while living in a state of defilement and departure from God. I must say that I tend to agree with you in the main on this for I think it best to err on the side of caution when it comes to stuff like this.
Verne
p.s anybody got an explananton for the "blood of the covenant" or the "blood of circumcision"?
I was really looking forward to hearig those clearly explained.   

[summer007]

Fair enough Tom. I'm certainly not perfect and have alot of Grace and Mercy from the Lord. Nothings too difficult for the Lord the final judgements are in his hand. Summer.

[Oscar]

Verne,

p.s anybody got an explananton for the "blood of the covenant" or the "blood of circumcision"?
I was really looking forward to hearig those clearly explained.   

My explanation would be that I wouldn't want to sniff the shoes of the person who used those terms.

 

Thomas Maddux

[Oscar]

Tom,
Could you go into a little more detail how many still read the Bible GG style. In hindsight I can see how many bonehead decisions have been / can be made applying the Bible this way.
For me personally the Book of Proverbs has been a great practical blessing to my life.

The best example would be to read Sondra's "expository" posts.

Thomas Maddux

[M2]

Fair enough Tom. I'm certainly not perfect and have alot of Grace and Mercy from the Lord. Nothings too difficult for the Lord the final judgements are in his hand. Summer.

summer et al,

The nature of being deceived is that one is convinced in one's mind that one is doing the right thing, or at least has not done the wrong thing.  George possibly justified "what he did" with verses like, "To the pure, all things are pure; but to those who are defiled and unbelieving, nothing is pure, but both their mind and their conscience are defiled. Titus 1:15".  It is mind-boggling that he succeeded in convincing his victims and that his victims even reamined silent after the fact.

Recently I went out for coffee and fellowship with someone from my church.  I do not usually talk about my assembly experience as most people cannot relate to it, unless it has something to do with the discussion.  This person asked and I briefly mentioned that the leader had been immoral over the years.  She immediately was able to pinpoint it as a "deliberate attempt to deceive" what took me months to figure out.  We did not disuss it much further as I am not looking to create a support group environment.

We became "... dull of hearing." Heb 5:11
She was mature and able to discern.
Heb 5:14 But solid food is for the mature, who because of practice have their senses trained to discern good and evil.

Marcia