Prostitution, A Crime?

[David Mauldin]

Last November the city of Pomona set up a sting operation on a street that was a popular hangout for prostitutes. 40 men were arrested in less than 3 hours time. (They only had one policewoman out there! Thats 1 guy every 5 minutes!)  The men were arrested and their cars were impounded. They were charged with a felony and had to pay $1000 to get their cars back. I felt sorry for the guys. They didn't look like crooks to me. They looked like rough types blue color construction workers etc... now the bait!  She didn't look like a prostitute. In fact she said, "Guys are coming up to me saying, "You look too good!  Is this a sting?" She did look good!  What I think happened was these guys saw what looked like a chance in a lifetime!  But they got busted instead. Now I would like to ask, If a crime requires a victim, them tell me who is a victim when prostitution is committed? Why is prostitution a crime?  Are prostitutes bad people?  Are guys who are willing to pay for sex bad people?  Where is the crime???

[Jem]

Prostitution is the economic subjugation of women. Real men don't allow it. If a guy comes up to a good looking woman and sees "the chance of a lifetime." The only life he is thinking about is his own. Ask your wife what she would say if you said to her, "But honey it was the chance of a lifetime." Sheesh. This is not a victimless crime. The vast majority of $$$ made by prostitution is paid by men to men. If you can't see who the victim is you must be...well...a man.

[David Mauldin]

  So Jem, if a woman could have control over the money, no interference from pimps, like in Ansterdam, then you thinks it's O.K.?

[tenderhearted]

Last November the city of Pomona set up a sting operation on a street that was a popular hangout for prostitutes. 40 men were arrested in less than 3 hours time. (They only had one policewoman out there! Thats 1 guy every 5 minutes!)  The men were arrested and their cars were impounded. They were charged with a felony and had to pay $1000 to get their cars back. I felt sorry for the guys. They didn't look like crooks to me. They looked like rough types blue color construction workers etc... now the bait!  She didn't look like a prostitute. In fact she said, "Guys are coming up to me saying, "You look too good!  Is this a sting?" She did look good!  What I think happened was these guys saw what looked like a chance in a lifetime!  But they got busted instead. Now I would like to ask, If a crime requires a victim, them tell me who is a victim when prostitution is committed? Why is prostitution a crime?  Are prostitutes bad people?  Are guys who are willing to pay for sex bad people?  Where is the crime???

Hi David: You seemed to be quite knowledgeable about this subject! Are there further stats on the pros and cons about legalizing prostitution.?

In Germany, where prostitution is legal, people who are looking for work, especially those who have to rely on the government for support, especially females, are being made to work in the sex industry in order to maintain that support.  DO YOU THINK THIS IS RIGHT?
This was in a German-English newspaper report.

I believe there would not be a need for prostitution if there wasnt a demand for it, THERE IS A DEMAND FOR IT, so I think it is fair to arrest the john's who are seeking to use a woman for their own pleaasure for pay.
There are people out there, in all countries, who are paying for the right to have sex with infants, young children etc. SO DO WE NEED TO CONTROL THE SEX INDUSTRY. DEFINITELY.

So in legalizing prostitution, SHOULD THE GOVERNMENT BE GETTING INVOLVED IN REGULATING CONTROLS over this industry.

Prostitution is demeaning to women, frequently abusive, and frequently these people who make their living by selling their bodies, often end up dead.
So should the JOHNS be held responsible for keeping the Sex Industry going. ABSOLUTELY!
No demand, No need.

Lenore

[Jem]

No Dave, I don't think that makes it OK. No woman wants to be a prostitue. Women are forced into prostitution by economic circumstances. We fallen humans have a prediliction for taking advantage of others' disadvantages. No little girl wants to grow up to be a hooker. So when you see one, see a woman whose dreams died hard and she is now making a very destructive choice. Use your social conscience here. Help the poor without helping yourself first.

[moonflower2]

Lenore,

You might want to check the stats for Belgium. supposedly, they've got it down to a science there. From what I've read about the legalization, it doesn't seem to cut down on how many avail themselves of the service, or any of the other negative aspects of the whole thing. In fact, it does make it easier for anyone looking for it. And, in the long run, I don't think it protects those in the younger age group, either. They'll just be kidnapped for the service.

Moonflower

[David Mauldin]

Lenore and others, I have read about the horrors of child sex trade and sex slavery that goes on in other countries. This is wrong! Yet the fact that prostitution is legal in Germany and other countries may say something!  Perhaps these women are protected from many of the abuses that go on in our country!??? In many ways the prostitute has been the example of the lowest form of desperation, debauchery a woman can find herself in. Usually the result of drug abuse! Or simply she finds that she has no other source of income!  On the other hand the "Madame" portrayed in the old westerns "Harvey Girls" "Paint Your Wagon" etc... seems to get a much different presentation!   She is world wise!  Knows the ropes! Able to manipulate her way around the men in her business. Which is more true to the reality??? The point I was leading to had nothing to do with my opening paragraph. Yes prostitution is illegal in California. But maybe not?  Prostitution that draws the attention of the police is illegal. Yet the dirty little secret is that prostitution is advertised in newspapers all over California!  It is a thriving industry!  Yet we "pretend" that it doesn't take place!  Why?

[outdeep]

Lenore and others, I have read about the horrors of child sex trade and sex slavery that goes on in other countries. This is wrong! Yet the fact that prostitution is legal in Germany and other countries may say something!  Perhaps these women are protected from many of the abuses that go on in our country!??? In many ways the prostitute has been the example of the lowest form of desperation, debauchery a woman can find herself in. Usually the result of drug abuse! Or simply she finds that she has no other source of income!  On the other hand the "Madame" portrayed in the old westerns "Harvey Girls" "Paint Your Wagon" etc... seems to get a much different presentation!   She is world wise!  Knows the ropes! Able to manipulate her way around the men in her business. Which is more true to the reality??? The point I was leading to had nothing to do with my opening paragraph. Yes prostitution is illegal in California. But maybe not?  Prostitution that draws the attention of the police is illegal. Yet the dirty little secret is that prostitution is advertised in newspapers all over California!  It is a thriving industry!  Yet we "pretend" that it doesn't take place!  Why?

I don't thing folks pretend it doesn't take place.  I think people just really don't think about it and therefore don't make the connection that the various Asian massages in Southern California are probably not there to address back problems.  Ironically, back in the 1980's there were two massage places in Pomona.

So, you are right - laws are enforced hit or miss.  Some cities have more tolerance than others.  Some situations (massage vs. peep show vs. escort vs street walking) and allowed or disallowed differently in different locations.  I'm sure those involved in the industry know the unwritten rules.  (Or, if you don't want to mess with the rules, go to Las Vegas where prostitution is legal - maybe something George should have done instead of picking off sisters).

I would say (as an opinion, not an authority) that laws against prostitution in America traditionally were made out of the view that sex outside of marriage is universally wrong, destructive to the family, and therefore destructive to society.  Prostitution is an open door to lawlessness and therefore attracts other forms of the criminal element.  (i.e., if you break one taboo, why not break the others?  This is why multiple types of sin/crimes tend to go together.)

The fact that the concept of legalized prostitution has become more acceptable mainstream shows the influence of the 1960's sexual revolution that moved sex as a means of procreation and a bond of intamacy in marrage to a form of recreation between two consenting individuals.  I don't think this is a valid view, but that is what Kinsey/Hefner did for us.

All that to say, there are the pragmatic arguments of prostitution (enforcing correct morals vs. safely providing for the fact that folks are going to do it anyway) and then there is the personal moral choice (no matter what the law is) which I think is well understood that we should avoid these temptation.

-Dave

[Jem]

Dave M, in your last post you said, "The point I was leading to had nothing to do with my opening paragraph..." So did you start this thread to talk about whether or not prostitution should be a crime? Or why if it is a crime in CA it is so randomly enforced? I don't think it's a good idea to start a thread and get to your point later on. It is misleading.

As to your reference to "Madames," they are female pimps. They may be able to "manipulate" their way around men, but what of the women they use in the process. If you want a good picture of this drop the "Harvey Girls" and "Paint Your Wagon" Miss Kitty types and read Steinbeck's "East of Eden." It's quite a picture of who the victims are when this crime is merely winked at by society.

[tenderhearted]

June 23rd:

In Canada there is a big sex industry trade, where girls are being brought over from places like Romania, to work as "exotic dancers", but frequently are enticed to work as prostitutes.
There was a big story on CTV show called W5, a newmagazine report on this very topic.

They bring girls over on false pretenses, and then take away their passports and other documents, and force them into the world of the sex industry.
Even though the bar owners deny the case, the newmagazine show made a very compelling case otherwise.

In places like Central Amercia, South America, East Asia, African countries, where young girls are sold, so families can survive financial. In some of these reports that I have seen on Oprah, and news magazines reports, it is usually North American and European Men, who uses these young girl prostitutes .

Even in Ottawa, phone book and newspaper advertisement, what appears to be a legal advertisement for escort services, is frequently a front for high price call girls.

I remember taking a couple of classes, or workshops on this subjects years ago, and also when I volunteered for my own local cable vision, there was video tape document on this very subject.

To legalize prostitution would protect the women from abusiveness from the people owning them, or would they.  Would it really get rid of the brothels, pimps, or just give them better professional names.

The other side of this is who is prostitution really serving. It is not the women, I am sure that if they are presented with a choice of a different professional job, most women would probably jump at the chance to change careers. What about the consumer of the this industry?
The consumer of this industry is probably the biggest element of this industry.

Remember in the Bible, when those men brought to Jesus the prostitute to stone, and he wrote in the sand, then said to the men, he who is without sin can cast the first stone.
What happen, those men just left the woman , even Jesus was her advocate here.

Lets look the old testament law about his. Wasnt the man who also was with the prostitute, wasnt he equally guilt of the sin, that they brought the woman to him.
But why didnt they also present the man to Jesus for punishment.

For me I believe that the man, who was equally guilty of sin, was among those crowd of men, who brought the woman to Jesus.  Jesus knew that they were just as guilty in the sin department as the woman.

In conclusion, if there wasnt a demand by the consumer for this product of the sex industry, then the need to supply the prostitute in the sex industry would not be there in the first place.

Lenore

[Oscar]

Folks,

Some years back I bought a book for my teenage girls about the sexual issues facing Christian teens.

Its been a long time, but one thing stands out in my memory.  At that time, there were 42 STD's, (Sexually Transmitted Diseases) that had been identified.   42!

Some were uncurable, and some were fatal.

Prostitutes are, and have always been, exposed to these diseases on a regular basis.  They are infected, and in turn infect others with these diseases on a regular basis.

In Africa the WHO has plotted the spread of AIDS.  In eastern Africa Lake Victoria acts as a transportation link between several countries.  AIDS was spread along all the roads leading to the lake by truck drivers who consorted with prostitutes.  Then they took it home and gave it to their wives.

Libertarians argue that prostitution is a "victimless" crime.  I would say that over 40 million people with AIDS might qualify as victims.

But why not.   As Herman Goering said, "Once we got rid of God, we could do anything."

Thomas Maddux

[moonflower2]

June 23rd:

In conclusion, if there wasnt a demand by the consumer for this product of the sex industry, then the need to supply the prostitute in the sex industry would not be there in the first place.

Lenore

The demand has always been here and, except for during the final millenium, always will be here.

I think that the only benefit of legalizing it would be to generate more tax dollars for the government.

Last I heard, there is still a 3-month window for HIV. During that time it can be passed on to infect another partner.

Men, thinking that the prost. have been checked, will still be contracting and passing HIV to prost. and their own wives. Likewise, the prost will be passing it on.

I just can't see where legalizing it would prevent anything or create a safer environment for the prost. young girls will still be forced into it. Who's going to report it? 

Look at the countries that have legalized it to one extent or another. It has not cut down on the numbers involved with human trafficking; in fact, IMO, it creates more of a demand because IT'S LEGAL NOW!!

Take the abortion figures. What has been the benefits of legalizing it? It has only made it easier to get one, and not only one, but many, before girls have even graduated from high school. The girls know that it is done in a more controlled environment, so it is "safe".

If it was still illegal, there would not be as many girls seeking to get one. The business would still have an obvious deterent.

[tenderhearted]

The demand has always been here and, except for during the final millenium, always will be here.

I think that the only benefit of legalizing it would be to generate more tax dollars for the government.

Last I heard, there is still a 3-month window for HIV. During that time it can be passed on to infect another partner.

Men, thinking that the prost. have been checked, will still be contracting and passing HIV to prost. and their own wives. Likewise, the prost will be passing it on.

I just can't see where legalizing it would prevent anything or create a safer environment for the prost. young girls will still be forced into it. Who's going to report it? 

Look at the countries that have legalized it to one extent or another. It has not cut down on the numbers involved with human trafficking; in fact, IMO, it creates more of a demand because IT'S LEGAL NOW!!

Take the abortion figures. What has been the benefits of legalizing it? It has only made it easier to get one, and not only one, but many, before girls have even graduated from high school. The girls know that it is done in a more controlled environment, so it is "safe".

If it was still illegal, there would not be as many girls seeking to get one. The business would still have an obvious deterent.

Agreed

[matthew r. sciaini]

Dave Sable:

I have heard that prostitution is legal in Nevada, but on a county-by-county basis.  According to family that I have living in Las Vegas, it is not legal in that city, nor in Clark County, of which Las Vegas is county seat.

Matt

[David Mauldin]

Everyone, all the issues you use to counter the argument could be solved by legalization and government standardization!  Dave I was surprised at your knowledge of massage parlors, peep shows. I guess I had a suspicion that these things were going on but didn't know a whole lot about it until I read a copy of O.C. Weekly. (A free paper distributed everywhere in O.C.) I suspect that many people in our society are involved in one way or another. Funny thought, next time you are in church look around at people and ask yourself the question, "I wonder if.......